Originally posted by Mahiwal:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Yup agreed wholeheartedly, this is the main reason. No ability to think outside the box or book.
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So you do not understand the debate , the entire population of guppshup told you that since your first ever post onwards!
aww ak yaar, tuhay itni khujli kun h jaati hai? If you can't take the head out of the box atleast comeup for air once in a while. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Yup agreed wholeheartedly, this is the main reason. No ability to think outside the box or book.
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Matsui, it is exactly like you to take a phrase to prove your point, without understanding the muslim belief.
It is a muslim belief (as stated by the Quran) that we must 'hear and obey'. When we muslims talk about our downfall its in terms of how to do it in a manner GUIDED by Islamic methodology. When you talk about it, you want to somehow convert/conform it with YOUR thought.
This is why you'll never be able to get through.. simply cuz you dont understand that for us it is essential to stay with our book.
^^
Mahiwal,
You are entitled to your beliefs but then you also have to accept the consequences of your belief. That's what Matsui is trying to tell you and you aren't understanding.
Allow me Arvind.. 
Mahiwal, It is not me who is shutting out debate..it is not me who is saying these topics are beyond discussion…it is the uslim brothers and sisters on this website. I think Channmahi said it best…I don;t care how you pray, which time you pray, what makes you spiritual etc..but when politics is inserted in religion conversations, it involves us all. Becuase it is the politial aspet of ISlam that I a mat odds with, not some much the spiritual aspect.
Your rationale for this debate being grauitous is only good as far as it concerns spirituality. I don;t care if you pray to Allah, jesus, ram, hanuman, yahweh or mas scientist foot…whatever makes you happy. But the moment yu declare someone else is the reason for the downfall of muslims, well…you are gonna have some company.
Plus the whole cnversion thing I only learned after hanging out with my muslims friends. So I decided to convert them instead. 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by HILAL K: *
Diva 4 u..........and ahmedis.......r rather GROUPS based on certain ideaologies..but they r NOT MUSLIMS....hope u get this SIMPLE point
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Hilal K...that's your perspective and does not belong to everyone else. Who are you to call others non-muslims ?
Just to chip in, but blaming particular groups as was done in the early part of this thread is somewhat inaccurate. The downfall of Muslims really occured from the 17th and 18th centuries onwards, well before these sects popped up.
As our brother ak47 rightly points out, the key issue is a lack of ijtihad, which, although properly "banned" after the Mongol babarians took over the Islamic intellectual heartland, was never reinstated. This led to the Muslim world's intellectual (and this economic and military) leadership of the world waning and getting eclipsed by Europe.
The Uthmani Khilafat's military campaigns of the 17th century against Europe were the final true show of strength by the Muslims. After about that time, the Muslim world was unable to adjust to the changing balance of power and was swallowed by Europe piece by piece.
On the other hand, I would take issue with his assertion that arabic as national language was key: whilst the Uthmani Khilafat had mandatory arabic education, the official language was Turkish, and this contributed to the dissatisfaction on many in its arab provinces.
Just some random thoughts...
1) Why do we think that there has been a 'downfall of Islam'? Has there really been one?
2) If Islam is the fastest growing religion and spreading all over the world, is it really 'falling down'?
3) Are we basing this "downfall" on the fact, that in the opinion of many people on this board, muslims are 'suffering' in various parts of the world?
4) My take on this is that 'suffering', disputes, wars, what have you, are intrinsic part of the human race. The reasons for these could change, but as long as we continue to be humans, with all the 9 types of emotions, as long as we are able to 'think' (positively or negatively), the world will continue to have disputes and suffering; men will form and reform groups/ religions/ nations/ sects/ what have you.
Putting 2 and 4 together, muslims are supposedly suffering more than in the past, sheerly because there are more muslims now and in more parts of the world. It has nothing to do with Islam as such are with the perfidies of the rest of the world
I believe the causes for the downfall for Islam are (from my point of view), We take being born a Muslim for Granted (me included)
We point fingers at others claiming they r the reason for our downfall such as ahmedies and shia's but the truth is that jus as we question them as Muslims, they question us as sunnis too, so we should strengthen ourselves as Muslims and stop calling out who is a better muslim and who is not. We have the Quran and instead of picking and choosiing fatwas from here and there for our own convience, why not read it and follow it as much as we can.
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*Originally posted by Deviliciousss: *
We have the Quran and instead of picking and choosiing fatwas from here and there for our own convience, why not read it and follow it as much as we can.
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Some nicks in this thread are claiming that the downfall is due to not following Quran verbatim. You are recommending to follow it as much as you can. Can you clarify your point?
Here is a food of thought..
No one said that shia-sunni debate is the downfall for muslim. I can safely say that I was talking about groups who claim to be muslim but by the very fundamentals and definition of Islam are not considered so.
For examply, whoever denies Muhammad:saw: being the last prophet and believe in some new prophet after him is clearly saying something which is against the very basics of Islam.
Similarly, those who 
consider Muhammad:saw: as a simple post-man whose job was to deliver the book thus his actions or words dun mean anything to them are themselves denying the faith of Islam.
So, yeah I still hold my views intact. Shia - Sunni - wahaabi - barelvi is not the issue.. Their basic beliefs are same.. That is Imaan-e-Muffasil to be very precise; however, perverts are those whose beleifs are totally in 180 degree directions.
Thanks.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
Here is a food of thought..
No one said that shia-sunni debate is the downfall for muslim. I can safely say that I was talking about groups who claim to be muslim but by the very fundamentals and definition of Islam are not considered so.
For example, whoever denies Muhammad:saw: being the last prophet and believe in some new prophet after him is clearly saying something which is against the very basics of Islam.
Similarly, those who consider Muhammad:saw: as a simple post-man whose job was to deliver the book thus his actions or words dun mean anything to them are themselves denying the faith of Islam.
So, yeah I still hold my views intact. Shia - Sunni - wahaabi - barelvi is not the issue.. Their basic beliefs are same.. That is Imaan-e-Muffasil to be very precise; however, perverts are those whose beleifs are totally in 180 degree directions.
Well, to put you in your place, Ahmadis do believe that prophet Muhammed was the last prophet of Islam. So, please take incorrect references somewhere else and get your facts right before pointing fingers at people and their beliefs.
Also, when people don’t have answers to their own issues, they start calling other muslims wrong. Follow Islam to your best ability and allow others to follow it to theirs. Also, again being from a particular sect is NOT the downfall in Islam. There are much more severe issues that are being faced in the Islamic world that need to be resolved rather than these petty finger pointings of certain sects.
^
Ahmadiat is not the issue at hand. SO i dun wanaa debate. Search this forum for better knowledge and u know it better:
for detail point of view visit: http://www.irshad.org/qadianism.php
I am not against any sect.. I dun even consider qadianism part of islam let alone a sect of it.
ThankYOUverymuch 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Arvind: *
Some nicks in this thread are claiming that the downfall is due to not following Quran verbatim. You are recommending to follow it as much as you can. Can you clarify your point?
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there are the basics in the quran such as the five pillars ( a child will even know..) we can atleast follow that, and The Quran is layered and some issuues can be vague (like body organ donations) im not denyin the imprtance of muftis and their fatwas, but im sayin that there is alot we can learn from the quran jus by reading it instead of pickin and choosing fatwas about basic everyday things that we can do liek pray.
AQ i wasnt pointin that out at u believe me.. I was jus sayin sumthin i often argue about with people
Assalam o Alaikum warehmatullah..
Here is my opinion/ stand on the topic...
In my opinion Down falll of muslims is due to many factors , not due to any single factor.
But the major factor being muslims becoming more of a nam ka muslam rather then kam ka muslaman .....
is that we have more differences among us then we had at any other time....we have people cutting the very roots of islam by disguising themselves as muslims and their
shirkia belives as islam ...we are not united amongst ourselves....with * nahn ul arab * -- * sub say pehlay pakistan *---*jag punjabi jag * type nationalist slogans making the ummah weaker..
we have left the way of jihad as a whole with small pockets of muslims trying to save other fellow oppressed muslims ..but no proper attempt by muslim ummah to save them ....we dont have khilafah ..
we dont have leadership ..we need a leader..
we have left ijtihad on new things.....on the other hand we have ppl amongst us who say that we should have ijtihad on whther thier is need for changing in some core islamic belives...
we have so many muftis with every third person of ummah considering himself as mufti -at least considers himself as one- we have left ulema and try to interpret islam to suit us..
All in all we have left islamic practices resulting in our downfall
and so the cure is following islam totally...not in pieces that suits us.....
As shabahs used to say ..aslim taslim .....islam lay aao kamiyab ho jao gay ....
AQ ....
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I am not against any sect.. I dun even consider qadianism part of islam let alone a sect of it.
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wasalam
VERY INTERESTING Mr. Qureshi…If Ahmadiyat is not considered part of Islam than how can you initially state that it is one of the reasons in the downfall of Islam. Ask yourself that question ! You are negating your own opinions. At first you are pointing fingers at Ahmadis and others and then you are saying they aren’t even muslims. Then how can they truly be the downfall of Islam ? I think you yourself are pretty confused let alone your reasons for the downfall of islam. Those surely are not it.
Folks, the discussion is not on bashing one or the other sects/groups/whatever. So kindly stick to the topic, and be respectful when posting your views. Only criticize another faith if you can take that criticism on your own as well. In simple words, cut it out. :)
Back to the topic
[quote]
But the major factor being muslims becoming more of a nam ka muslam rather then kam ka muslaman .....
is that we have more differences among us then we had at any other time....we have people cutting the very roots of islam by disguising themselves as muslims and their
shirkia belives as islam ...we are not united amongst ourselves....with nahn ul arab -- sub say pehlay pakistan ---jag punjabi jag type nationalist slogans making the ummah weaker..
we have left the way of jihad as a whole with small pockets of muslims trying to save other fellow oppressed muslims ..but no proper attempt by muslim ummah to save them ....we dont have khilafah ..
we dont have leadership ..we need a leader..
we have left ijtihad on new things.....on the other hand we have ppl amongst us who say that we should have ijtihad on whther thier is need for changing in some core islamic belives...
we have so many muftis with every third person of ummah considering himself as mufti -at least considers himself as one- we have left ulema and try to interpret islam to suit us..
All in all we have left islamic practices resulting in our downfall
and so the cure is following islam totally...not in pieces that suits us.....
[/quote]
I think each of these should be a separate topic for discussion.
Simple. They are corrupting the beliefs of those innocent muslims who have very little knowledge of Islam. Simple as it is.
Now stay on the topic. I even did not mention Ahmadiyat when you responded to my reply. I was merely pointing out groups who calim to have prophets after Muhammad:saw: and you just jumped in. What can I say now:)?
Very early in its history, official Christianity opened its doors to Greek philosophy and science. This official sanction allowed philosophy and science to be institutionalized in the great European universities and receive extensive support from the church, the crown, and other groups. Yet from the beginning, and despite its great individual achievements during the European medieval period, Islam never accommodated the cognitive disciplines of Greek philosophy and science.
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/024/hart.html