ravage and Ali's alleged compilation

1010 · April 26, 2004, 10:59pm

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Azad: *
Allah hum teri panah mangtay hain ***aan mardood say, or waswason say, or uss kay shar say, Allah nahi hay koi mabood teray siwa, or tu hi hay jo dilon ko phir dayta hay bhalaii ki taraf. ...... (Ameen)
[/QUOTE]

Azad, most of the time we don't start any thread offending anyone. It's not a good thing to fight someone who is not interested in fighting.

We also believe in the Unity of Ummat, and we believe that shia-sunni discussions only create friction among Muslims. This is the last thing we want. Our enemies don't see us as sunnis and shias. They plan and make conspiracies against us only for being Muslims.

Today Muslims are in grave danger. Islam's third holiest shrine is in danger. And the condition we are in would not allow to do anything even if tomorrow someone goes for our other holy places (khuda-nakhasta).
There are enemies of Muslims at prominent positions in Western governments, especially the US, who are systematically weakening Muslim countries day by day.

In face of all such dangers when we need unity, there are some people like Musanna who only like to start threads which only create hatred among Muslims, and make them divided when this is the last thing they want.

I take part in other religious forums, and I am quite an active member there, yet all my posts are about the common things shias and sunnis have, and you know that there are only few things in which we disagree. Even those in which we disagree don't matter anymore. So why not be united and face our enemies rather than keep fighting with each other?

"ek hon Muslim haram ki paasbaani ke liye
Neel ke saahil se le kar ta ba khak e Kashghar"

Azad · April 26, 2004, 11:11pm

Nawazish Bhai 1010 reply karnay ka, hum ziyada bat karna nahi chahtay kyon ke yeh topic se related nahi hay... ilm ki batain aalim hi janain.

Diwana_Desii · April 27, 2004, 12:55am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

as promised here is the challenge:

Bring me a single narration from your books which says the Sahabah accepted Ali's compilation and thus what we have today is that compilation.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda
[/QUOTE]

And who claimed Sahaba's accepted Hazrat Ali .A.S. compilation...... They didn't and this is the reason, the quran we have today is not is the order it was revealed...... You just seem to cook up some claim and than challenge it... even though no one believes it.....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *

Interesting...

Order of ayah is very important in understanding quran ...changing the order may have wide effect on the interpretation on quran etc.....

Aur phir kehtay ho kay quran ko hum tehree shuda nahin mantay .....

bhai order main app kay khayal main changing ho gae to is ko he to tehreef kehtay hain ....

laholawalquwata
[/QUOTE]

**
Bao Bihari... its been explained several times but nothing seems to get in ur head... You claim quran is in the order it was revealed... I ask you...

You claim its in the order it was revealed... may be you can use ur scholar knowledge to answer this..

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)

If this verse is 5:3 of the quran... which states quran is perfect... Does it mean in ur sunni version of Islam the rest of the quran doesnt mean anything because Islam was perfected on the relevation of verse 5:3.
**

Faisal · April 27, 2004, 1:00am

Folks,

Instead of going round and round in circles, pls state your point and move on. The way you guys are going, its almost a criminal waste of time. Saying the same things again and again.

If no one has anything better to add, its probably wise to close down this thread. Convince me in the next 24 hours why this thread should remain open, else it will be closed. :)

Jazak Allah.

Ibn_Sadique · April 27, 2004, 1:05am

Brother Al-Muthanna Accept my warmest welcome.

In case you are wondering the above quotation is ‘personal’ between Azad and 1010 and not related to the topic. [Just like this post of mine.]

M · April 27, 2004, 1:23am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Folks,

Instead of going round and round in circles, pls state your point and move on. The way you guys are going, its almost a criminal waste of time. Saying the same things again and again.

If no one has anything better to add, its probably wise to close down this thread. Convince me in the next 24 hours why this thread should remain open, else it will be closed. :)

Jazak Allah.
[/QUOTE]

Brother Faisal

These types of discussions always keep appearing. If you close this they will just start another. I think as long as they stick to the topic and do not insult each other then let them continue. Otherwise all the things said here would be argued over again and again.

Al-Muthanna · April 27, 2004, 10:15am

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

I see 1010, you have still not replied to the actual posting of mine despite your promise to do so. Have you now totally focussed on trying to distract from the main topic?

As I said if you are interested in discussing the narrations you are presenting, then be brave enough to open a new thread and answer my posting with direct reference to the topic here.

Anyway, I have two simple questions for you:

**1. Did Al-Tabrassi and Al-Tussi whose opinion I told you concerning the abrogation of recitation believe in the manipulation of the alleged Quraan (loss of Quraan). Yes or no?

Do you know what abrogation of recitation means?**

Looking forward to your response to these questions as well as your promised answer to my earlier posting.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

1010 · April 27, 2004, 10:51pm

[quote]
1. Did Al-Tabrassi and Al-Tussi whose opinion I told you concerning the abrogation of recitation believe in the manipulation of the alleged Quraan (loss of Quraan). Yes or no?
[/quote]

Yes they did. Just like what the ahadith I presented from Sunni books claim.

If you tell us that "abrogation" is the reason for "loss of certain verses" then same can be said about Tabrassi and Tussi.

[quote]
2. Do you know what abrogation of recitation means?
[/quote]

There is only ONE type of abrogation talked in Quran, and it is abrogation of certain aayats during prophet's time.

2:106 "Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?"

16:101 "And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know."

According to 2:106, Allah either (1)abrogates some verse Himself, or (2)cause it to be forgotten.

For (1), Allah can aborgate a verse Himself only when Prophet is alive. Obviously, it is not possible after his death, because the revelations ended with him.
For (2), the verse is explicity talking to Prophet himself. Hence if something is "forgotten" then it is forgotten by Prophet alone. It is not about people forgetting some portions of Quran, and still calling those forgotten verses abrogated. They are not.

By the way, how many verses, do you believe, were abrogated?

Al-Muthanna · April 28, 2004, 4:15pm

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

[QUOTE]
Yes they did. Just like what the ahadith I presented from Sunni books claim.
[/QUOTE]

very nice. Congratulations you have just declared 2 out of four of your eminent scholars who openly denied their belief in the manipulation of the Quraan to be liars! :)

[QUOTE]
There is only ONE type of abrogation talked in Quran, and it is abrogation of certain aayats during prophet's time.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for proving that you have no clue about the different forms of abrogation. :)

Nobody claimed that abrogation happened after the Prophet's death, yet your problem is that you don't understand what abrogation means. It was the Prophet (saws) who told the Sahabah that these verses were abrogated by recitation, and therefore they didn't write it down in the compilation. So this was Allah's will.
There is no manipulation here and you won't find a single Sunni scholar who ever interpreted these narrations in a different way. So your own misunderstanding of these narrations remains your problem, not ours.

If you want to know more about the topic, then open a new thread solely dedicated to it and ask your questions there.

Anyway, still waiting for your promised answer to my posting.

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

1010 · April 28, 2004, 6:02pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
very nice. Congratulations you have just declared 2 out of four of your eminent scholars who openly denied their belief in the manipulation of the Quraan to be liars! :)
[/quote]

I know it is difficult to fit in your brain, but those people were only "wrong" not liars.
Can you make this distinction?

Let me give you an example. It might make the things clear. Aisha and Muawiyah fought with Ali, the Amirul Momineen of ALL Muslims. Now everyone says that they did something "wrong", but at that time they thought it was right.
Got it?

[quote]

Thanks for proving that you have no clue about the different forms of abrogation. :)
[/quote]

Dear, I presented verses from Quran to tell you what abrogation means. If it is not enough for you then tell me other sources which discuss the kinds of abrogation. Can you give reference?

[quote]
It was the Prophet (saws) who told the Sahabah that these verses were abrogated by recitation, and therefore they didn't write it down in the compilation. So this was Allah's will.
[/quote]

Abrogation by recitation? Any reference for this kind of abrogation?
It is not that Sahabah did not write those verses on Prophet's instructions. There are some ahadith which say that those verses were actually LOST by accident.

Narrated by Aisha:

'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

Ref:Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269: Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626: Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310 which has been misprinted as 210-: As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13.

This is not something which prophet had instructed. It just happened by accident.

*"It has been narrated by Abu 'Ubayd in al-Fada'il and by Ibn al-Anbari and Ibn Mardawayh from Aishah that she (Hazrat Aisha) said, 'The surah al-Ahzab was recited in the days of the Prophet two hundred verses, but when 'Uthman wrote the Qur'an, he was unable to find more than what is there at present." *

Ref: As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 5, pp. 179-180; As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, vol. 2. p. 25

Another accident! Here also, prophet never said that Surah Ahzab has to be of 73 verses only. According to this hadith, Ahzab is of 73 verses only because all other verses could not be FOUND.

*Imam Malik ibn Anas was asked as to why there is no "Bismillah" in surah Tauba. He said, "It was lost with its earlier parts, because it is confirmed that it was equal to surah al-Baqarah in length." *

Ref: As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, vol. 1, p. 65.

[quote]

Anyway, still waiting for your promised answer to my posting.

[/QUOTE]

I thought you did not want me to reply here. That's ok. If you want me to reply then I will reply here. No problem. :)

Al-Muthanna · April 28, 2004, 6:13pm

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

[QUOTE]
I thought you did not want me to reply here. That's ok. If you want me to reply then I will reply here. No problem.
[/QUOTE]

no, of course I want you to reply here to the points that relate to the topic, as for the topic about abrogation, then inshaAllah I will open a new thread for that and we can continue it there.

Here is the posting to which you failed to reply (but promised to do so):

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

lol, and I thought dislike towards Ali (ra) means you are a Nasibi, the worst form of a Kaffir. So is a Nasibi trustworthy in your sect?

There are hundreds of narrations that say exactly the contrary! While there is not even a single tiny one which confirms what you are claiming. Rather it is reported that your Aimmah allegedly advised you to stick to this Quraan as an interim solution until the real one will be brought by the Mahdi.

I challenge you to bring me a single narration from your books that confirm the Quraan was not content-wise manipulated.

Didn't I challenge you to mention just a single scholar who said there are missing verses in the Quraan? The incident you are referring to is about abrogated verses, I challenge you to bring me a single Sunni scholar who denied this.

See my response in the other thread, that's not what for instance Al-Tussi says.

I asked you for a confirmation by an Infallible that the present Quraan is accurate, at least as far as his content is concerned with no missing verses.

That's getting funny now. Ravage first claimed that the "SURAS" were perserved, and only the order of them was changed. Then he retracted this statement and agreed that your sect believes the order of the VERSES was manipulated.

And now you claim that, well at least the number of the verses was preserved, but you know I hate to disappoint you here. Weren't you the one who shouted that clearly 33:33 was misplaced? Well unfortunately the part that you have in mind here is not even a VERSE! But rather a part of a verse! So there is no way to believe in this and at the same time to claim that you believe the number of the verses was preserved except for if you look for another verse that was "cut" into many verses. By this it becomes obvious that you are just playing and in fact believing in the alleged manipulation of the Quraan.

The next step would be to claim that the words were misplaced, yet the total of each word was preserved...I'm waiting for that.

How does the Quraan permit the manipulation of the order of the verses? Bring me a single narration from your books that allows you to do this Tafsir. Where did an infallible Imaam say that "preserved" doesn't include the order? Remember you aren't allowed to do Tafsir EXCEPT with such a narration.

And again I say, how can you trust it if it was compiled by people whom you don't consider to be trustworthy? As for Ali (ra) and the other Aimmah, then didn't they have their own compilation? Isn't this what your sect claims?

The one who believes in the manipulation of the Quraan is a Allama for you? Allahu Akbar!
Thanks for showing us how much you respect the Book of Allah (swt).

Anyway, he is not simply talking about his personal opinion, he is clearly stating that this Hadeeth about the 17000 verses is AUTHENTICATED. And that its meaning is OBVIOUS about the LOSS and MANIPULATION of Quraan.

Moreover he is posing a great problem for your sect because he is saying that if you reject these narrations (as you did), you can't rely on ANY narrations anymore since they have the same level of authenticity.

Al-Kafi is your MOST AUTHENTIC book and contains tens if not hundreds of such narrations.

Anyway, concerning your claim then I have a surprise for you. Your great Abu Ali Al-TABRASSI confirmed the abrogation of recitation and as an example he mentioned the very same matter you were referring to, namely that Sura Al-Ahzab was comparable in length to Sura al-Baqara (see Majma' Al-Bayan, Vol. 1, P. 409). The same was expressed by Abu Ja'far Al-TUSSI in his Tibyan, Vol. 1, P. 394.
So they believed in the manipulation of the Quraan, right?

Rafida is a praise in your sect recommended by your "infallibles". Blame them if you don't like it, not me.

Some? It is all except for four who were using Taqiyya according to your own scholars!

Yeah sorry, these scholars didn't speak English. How could I forget.
And no there is no need to call Imaam Bukhari a Kaffir for all these narrations refer to the DIVINE abrogation of verses which your own scholars confirmed. Sorry to disappoint you.

As for all the narrations you quoted, I invite you to open a new thread, and I will be more than happy to explain every single narration to you and show you that your own scholars confirmed them.

wa salamu 'ala man itab'a Al-Houda
[/QUOTE]

1010 · April 28, 2004, 6:19pm

Yes, and meanwhile you can try to reply about the LOST VERSES OF QURAN, some of which I showed above.

Remember, all those verses were LOST. It is not that Prophet asked them not to be written, as you had claimed above in the context of "abrogation of recitation".

By the way, I also asked you the reference for "abrogation of recitation" from any source. I am still waiting.

bao_bihari · April 28, 2004, 6:33pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 1010: *

Sorry to disappoint you bihari, but shias are also muslims. ;)
Do Ahle Sunnat REALLY consider people with tahreef-narrations kafir? But don't they have such narrations in their own books? So do you consider yourself kafir?
I believe that Ahle Sunnat don't take those narrations from their books authentic. Because if they do then they would have to impose their own fatwa on themselves. Am I wrong? [/QUOTE]

u have still not answered my question .....
do u/shia belive that anyone having belive that there is anysort of tehreef in quran is kaffir or not...
yes or no ....

dont drag sunnis into this....answer my question first , then ask as many questions as u like.......

1010 · April 28, 2004, 6:37pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
do u/shia belive that anyone having belive that there is anysort of tehreef in quran is kaffir or not...
yes or no ....

dont drag sunnis into this....answer my question first , then ask as many questions as u like.......
[/QUOTE]

hehe. Angry on me? You should not be. I am shia and I have all the rights to defend my fiqh, just as you have the right to defend yours.

Ok. My answer is: I don't know. I am not a scholar, you know.

But my own personal opinion is that he is not kafir.

bao_bihari · April 28, 2004, 6:46pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 1010: *

hehe. Angry on me? You should not be. I am shia and I have all the rights to defend my fiqh, just as you have the right to defend yours.

Ok. My answer is: I don't know. I am not a scholar, you know.

But my own personal opinion is that he is not kafir.
[/QUOTE]

Quite brave 1010

In case u dont edit ur post i have quoted u ......theek hay na...

it summs up all discussions about allged 17000ayahs and shia stand on it..it tells us about aleegd surah alwalayat as given in ur books that u say is ommitted from quran by shabah ......

Dont be defensive .......thank u for telling us that * u dont belive in the concept that believing in tehreef e quran is kuffar *

what else can i say ....
innnalilah e wainna alihay rajaoon

1010 · April 28, 2004, 7:02pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
it summs up all discussions about allged 17000ayahs and shia stand on it..it tells us about aleegd surah alwalayat as given in ur books that u say is ommitted from quran by shabah ......
[/quote]

haha. Stop putting your words in my mouth, bihari. :D

I did not say that any aayat was added in Quran, or deleted from it.

And I told you that I am not an aalim, hence you should not ask for fatwa from me. It is only people like you who are quick to impose their own personal fatwas on others, just like you are trying to do here.

In fact, this is your own problem. You have tens of ahadith which claim that Quran is not complete today.

[quote]

what else can i say ....
innnalilah e wainna alihay rajaoon
[/QUOTE]

If you do believe in those ahadith then I would say the same to you.

innnalilah e wainna alihay rajaoon

Al-Muthanna · April 29, 2004, 9:58am

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

so where is your promised response, 10?

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda

Zainiest · April 29, 2004, 12:35pm

1010

[QUOTE]
Ok. My answer is: I don't know. I am not a scholar, you know.
But my own personal opinion is that he is not kafir.
[/QUOTE]

As a Shia, you have to follow the opinion of your marajah. Right?

Will your marajah have the same opinion as you?

bao_bihari · April 29, 2004, 4:56pm

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zainiest: *
**1010*

As a Shia, you have to follow the opinion of your marajah. Right?

Will your marajah have the same opinion as you?
[/QUOTE]

1010 ....?

[QUOTE]
haha. Stop putting your words in my mouth, bihari.

I did not say that any aayat was added in Quran, or deleted from it.

And I told you that I am not an aalim, hence you should not ask for fatwa from me. It is only people like you who are quick to impose their own personal fatwas on others, just like you are trying to do here.

In fact, this is your own problem. You have tens of ahadith which claim that Quran is not complete today.
[/QUOTE]

What else tehreef means brother.....

Mr u r representing a community .....supporting its belives ..and we have every right to question what is written in ur book.....so if u agreee that u dont belive that tehreef e quran is kuffar then it all fits in places having these belives about tehreef in quran.....
even if there is any such thing.....which is not......still it does not proves any thing.....i belive that tehreef is kuffar and am vocal about it.....

So kindly stick to the topic...start a new thread about sunni belives.....aain baain shain na karo....

chao