Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
The link is to the interview of Mufti Taqi. I believe that I know what he said on Hudud-ul-Zia ordinance in his interview. I have seen his interview with Shahid Masood on ARY. I have also read his article published in Jasarat on Hudud-ul-Zia and on net too. But I have no trust on that man. Please read my post on his lecture #179](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4685926&postcount=179)
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
I am all for changes in the law to make it better for women in Pakistan, they need to be empowered. However, what pissed me off was the completely false statements that ran throughout the world press that a woman reporting to police a rape case is arrested if she cannot produce 4 witnesses. This is crap. And for quite a long time i beleived this crap, coz it was circulated in such manner. But this is simply not true.
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
Those two cases were screwed up by police and state, Shariat Court has already ruled that pregnancy is not by default a proof of adultery.
But yoy keep arguing that all those women who are in jails are on these charghes. You are wrong.
Was Mukhtaran Mai put in jail? Was Dr Shazia jailed? I do not know of ANY SINGLE WOMEN OR CASE REPORTED in press that a women went to police station with charges of rape and was arrested on charge of Zina. If there is one enlighten us.
I gave you reference of two cases and you are still asking for one :).
Well, forget pregnancy; tell me why these two girls were in prison on zina cases when they were raped? Forget cases of those two girls; tell me that why so many girls were in prison on zina cases?
How do you know that those that were in prison on zina cases, not one, but majority of them, were not actually there in prison because they went to police to report rape and police charged them on zina?
Forget everything; just tell me that what were the criteria for a girl to be put in prison by police on zina cases?
If girls were put into prison on accusation of zina, why you think that a raped girl cannot be accused by police of zina on the basis of her confession that she was raped?
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
**CII agrees death not Islamic punishment
***By Ali Waqar *
LAHORE: The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) has agreed that the death sentence is not Islamic punishment and/or necessary in Islam, except in cases of fasad fil arz (mischief in land) and murder.
The CII also recommended that the Quranic penalty for rape and theft is to be enforced “only in exceptional cases, otherwise a court/judge can act leniently in accordance with the nature and circumstances of an incident”. It also declared that there should be no gender or religious discrimination in calling or accepting witnesses in cases being tried under the Hudood laws.
Sources told Daily Times on Tuesday that the CII had unanimously agreed on a 10-point recommendation regarding the application of Hudood laws, at its recent 164th meeting. These 10 points are likely to become part of the official minutes to be sent to the prime minister and president. In an official statement, the CII has already announced it unanimous view that a rape (zina bil jabr) victim should not be required to produce four witnesses.
According to details provided by sources, the 10-point recommendation approved by the council on the application of Hudood laws is as follows:
n The maximum punishment for zina and theft is 100 lashes and the amputation of hands respectively, according to the Quran. These punishments should be awarded only when the crime is extraordinary in nature/circumstances and the convict does not deserve any leniency or concession. Courts, if considered appropriate, can be lenient and hand out a lesser sentence, depending on how much leniency the convict deserves.
n Rape and adultery/consensual sex (zina bil raza) are two separate crimes. A victim of rape should not be required to produce four witnesses to file a complaint. In cases of rape, the affected woman should be the complainant, not a defendant. The state should be bound to investigate, arrest the alleged rapist and punish him if the crime is proven.
n A person accused of adultery should be acquitted if the complainant fails to produce four witnesses to prove his/her allegation in court. Once acquitted, the accused person cannot be tried/punished under any other law, unless he/she refuses to give a statement under oath or confesses to the crime. In cases of li’an, where the accused person confesses or denies the charges on oath, courts will decide the cases in view of the circumstances.
n The council decided that only dacoity was not the only crime that should be treated as fasad fil arz and haraba (violence). It said that offences like terrorism and rape were also fasad fil arz and haraba, and the perpetrators of these acts should punished as provided in Sura Maida of the Quran.
n The death sentence/penalty is permissible only for the killing of a human being or in (extreme) cases of fasad fil arz. It is clearly stated in the Quran that the death sentence is unworkable, and cannot be handed out except in cases of fasad fil arz and murder.
n The will/consent of the heir (wali) is not important in qisas cases. Qisas can be enforced even after a wali’s forgiveness. On the other hand, no relaxation/concession can be given without the wali’s consent.
n Diyat is compulsory in qatal-e-khata (unintentional homocide) and qatal-e-amd (deliberate murder), according to Islamic shariah. However, social customs/traditions can be followed to set the amount.
n In shariah, there are five crimes for which sentences have been defined: zina, qazaf, murder, fasad fil arz and theft. Apart from these crimes, all crimes are related to the (maintenance of) collective (social) discipline/order, and a sentence/punishment can be defined/handed out accordingly.
n There is no discrimination against any man/woman, Muslim/non-Muslim in acceptance of statements by any witness. In Islamic shariah, there are no criteria for witness in any crime, except in zina cases. Therefore all Hudood cases should also be argued and proven (in court) as those in the past or as those that will be will be proven in the future.
n It is not necessary for a judge to be Muslim if the law of the land has been formally drafted. Non-Muslim judges, after developing knowledge of the Muslim law, can decide cases of every nature.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\04\04\story_4-4-2007_pg7_10
:chupki:
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
I gave you reference of two cases and you are still asking for one :).
Well, forget pregnancy; tell me why these two girls were in prison on zina cases when they were raped?
I dunno about the details 0f both these cases but i concur that in these cases girls were "found" pregnant and tried for adultery and they claimed "rape" as cause.
But tell me if rape victims were by default charged with Zina if 4 witnesses did not exist why Mukhatarn Mai was not charged?
And i have already posted that law says if 4 witnesses are not available case is to be tried under Tazir.
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
^^
Iconoclast: Please read this post and all past post on the subject carefully to understand what I have written. I believe that you are not reading or trying to understand what is written, still arguing on that.
Brother, can you show me anywhere I or anyone wrote that by default, all ‘confessions of being raped’ use to become zina cases? No one wrote that.
That does not mean that most ‘confessions of being raped’ did not use to become zina cases, it only means that it was not by default, but it was due police making allegation (under influence of rapist, mischief or for money) that zina was done by the girl with unknown man. That is how rape cases use to become zina cases.
Sex happened due to zina or rape is different matter, as that now needed proof. Just girl claiming that she was raped was not proof that she was raped. On basis of her confession, anyone (normally police) used to bring charges of zina on the girl, and putting her in prison on that charges.
Now, girl can only get away from that allegation (or charges against her) if she can prove by providing four witnesses that her confession of sex (rape) was not zina but it was actually rape. Since she could not, she used to languish in jail for ages, under zina allegation (charges).
Thus, all what anyone ever wrote, that includes me, is that under Hudud-ul-Zia law, all 'confessions by girl of getting raped' had potential to become zina cases, as by default that confession was taken as girl being involved in sex. And thus case of zina registering against her on that basis. On that allegation of zina, she used to get imprisoned until her case is cleared. This use to happen most of the time, especially when the girl concerned was poor, vulnerable, or raped by someone influential.
Zia farce Shariet court could not give her haad punishment because they (or police) could not bring four witnesses that she did zina nor they (or police) could persuade the girl in court to confess four times that she did zina. Hence, she used to languish in jail for long time, just because case is lingering in court.
That is why, girls that were raped, if they use to go to police to register rape case, under hudud-ul-zia, their confession used to get them into trouble, as they use to become liable of zina case.
Mukhtaran Mai case and other cases during Musharraf rule: As for you talking about Mukhtaran Mai case or cases that happened during Musharraf time, these type of rape cases use to happen more regularly before Musharraf. Only difference is that, this time when it happened, government encouraged the media in getting it publicised, so the case became known to all through media. Publicity of the case (and other similar cases) was later used by government to repeal Hudud-ul-Zia and bring women protection bill.
As for them raped girls becoming victim of past hudud-ul-Zia law, this did not happened during Musharraf time, as Musharraf government from day one was trying to curb injustices that girls use to face from hudud-ul-Zia. So no policemen could have manipulated rape confession into zina cases.
Actually, what I understand, Mukhtaran Mai did not even lodge rape case in any court (so she did not made any ‘confession of being raped’ to the police) but it was free media that brought her case on surface (and I would not be surprised if government hand and patronage was there behind media). Once the case became public, it was court (again under the direction of government) acted to punish the culprit.
All publicity gained during Mukhtaran Mai rape case and other high profile rape cases during Musharraf time, was later used by Musharraf government to repeal hudud-ul-Zia and bring in women protection bill.
I hope that you got it.
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
The CII’s decision is proof that Pakistan is further proof that Pakistan is doing away with the laws that unfairly targetted women. :k:
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
[gv]4763829972393791162[/gv]
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
When were the rape victims jailed.
Describe one incident or one law????
You are an Indian trying to be a Pakistani.
One minute you are all anti-mullah, and the next minute you are defending their weird beliefs. All your other posts are the same flip flopping. What do you expect from an Indian.
Re: Rape victims will not be jailed
^LOL