Rape - Quran and Hadith

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

Basically, yes.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^ If you think you can force yourself on your wife, and you'll remain on good terms with your wife, think again. I don't care how you twist the Quran on this one. Quran is very clear. Be good to other people, just fair, etc etc. Forcing yourself on your spouse, who is supposed to be your closest friend/partner, and shoving acts of sex on her that she's not open to, is abuse. And abuse is not allowed in Pakistan. In the real world, we call that rape. You can call it abuse or whatever, but hurting someone including your wife, is not allowed.

Yes, you are bound to each other in a marriage contract, but that contract doesn't give you a right to hurt your spouse. And sex is not simply just sex. There are a multitude of positions, force, angles, etc, and if your partner is telling you to stop, you need to stop lest you injure her.

That's common sense.

There are real medical problems that happen with forceful sex, and it's not a joke. And it's not your right to bruise her up, give her anal-vaginal fistulas, abscesses, urinary tract infections, psychological trauma from performing acts she's not comfortable with etc for your own pleausure.

This honestly should be common sense.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

I'm just curious Diwana. When your wife is 9 months pregnant, nauseated, constipated, and legs swollen from carrying your child, and she dares tell you that she isn't in the mood, are you going to force yourself on her, and tell her it's not rape because it's your right?

Does a wife not get the Islamic right to say "Sorry, not in the mood tonight"???

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

I brought up this topic, because in another thread somewhere someone mentioned that in Islam, a rape victim is obligated to marry the rapist. I don't believe this is an Islamic punishment, but maybe we're confusing what's written in the old/new testament with Islam. Anyone have more info on that?

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

Put that fatwa in the made up column. What if the rape was incestual in nature, or the woman is already a married lady?

BTW, dont know if you heard if this story where a tharki buddha raped his own bahu. You know what the fatwa was by mullahs? That the woman is now haram for the son (her hubby). That couple even had kids. I am not sure if she got the divorce, but this is how our jackass mullahs treat women. You are the victim, but you should be punished.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

Any act of aggression or force against anyone to obtain sexual pleasure, even including the spouse is a condemnable act!

Happy?

I do not think you understood anything from what Saleem wrote. Sorry, it requires a very clear, objective and logical mind to understand, not an emotional mind.

Again, there is no such thing as Marital 'rape'.

I am not sure why KKF said something and could not come back to explain.

This is the problem with some people, they just regurgitate what they hear or read but cannot comprehend the basis,... and other people think Islam is a terrible religion or religious people are evil.

Later in another thread about this, and this can be discussed further. So I will not respond here any emotionally driven or direct personal attacking post. Ciao. :)

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

[QUOTE]

Any act of aggression or force against anyone to obtain sexual pleasure, even including the spouse is a condemnable act!

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Again, there is no such thing as Marital 'rape'.
[/QUOTE]

The above two statements in the same post negate each other

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

As Saleem stated, marriage is a contract between a man and a woman. Both have some rights and certain responsibilities. Both are required to fulfill sexual needs of their spouse. This is fine. Often a hadith is quoted that if a man calls his wife to fulfill his desires and she refuses it or ignores it without a genuine reason and the husband remains annoyed for this behavior then Allah has shown displeasure with such a woman. One thing that many overlooks is that no where it is stated or implied that if she refuses then husband can have his way with her. It is implied in the hadith that the sexual relationship between man and his wife is based on consent of each other. One may not be fulfilling his/her responsibilities towards his/her spouse as the woman in the hadith but it does not give a free hand to the husband to take his wife to bed using his physical might, any threat etc.. In cases where there is no legal bond of marriage, such an act would obviously be 'rape' but you can give another name like 'abuse' etc. but that doesn't change the fact that sexual union of man and wife must be consensual since marriage does not make you a sex slave.

A person who has crossed the limits with his wife, he should be punished. I am not aware of Islamic rulings in this case but my personal thinking is that mere annulment of the marriage is not enough.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

Brother, I think that you are not trying to understand Islamic ruling and mixing it up with concept of rape that exists today (No … means ‘NO’ ... else it is 'Rape').

In Islam and in any world laws … rape is considered as ‘RAPE’ when a woman claims that she was raped ... where rape means sex happened without her consent. It is as simple as that. Obviously, if woman claims that she was raped then it is rape, but for a rapist to get punishment, she or someone on her behalf has to register case (on known or unknown rapist) … as without registering a case, no investigation can start nor any punishment can happen.

Rape could be of (basically) three types.

One is non-violent … where girl can be drugged, placated, deceived, cheated, while deeply in sleep, subconscious, or whatever … In non-violent rape, culprit would get punished because he violated girl’s honour and right … and could have harmed her mentally (given her mental scar).

Another is violent … that happens when girl is forced, abused, kidnapped, beaten up, made to perform under threat, and so on…. In violent rape, culprit would get punished not only because he violated girl’s honour and right, but also (mentally and physically) harmed her due to his violence (giving her mental and physical scar).

Third type of rape cases could be, rape after violating trust. This type of rapes happen where culprit is violating trust of person in his authority, for instance, husband taking advantage as a caretaker of his sick or vulnerable wife ... or doctors, police, teachers, and so on taking advantage of their position. Such rapes are worse than above two rape cases especially when authorities are involved, as other than girl suffering mental scar (possibly physical scars too), she suffers from ‘loss of trust’ that could affect her life permanently and also effect trust on authorities, and thus punishment to people involved in such rape should be most severe (though unfortunately in many cases, such type of culprits get away).

In most cases, and in most countries, all three types of rapes could carry different severity of punishment.

In marriage … Islam does not recognise rape. **In marriage, sex cannot happen without consent, as consent is given at the time of marriage, that is considered as permanent consent (no need to get consent each time sex happens ... hence 'no rape' is possible).

It is just like, if a person trespass a property, that person can be sued for trespassing. But a tenant cannot be prosecuted for trespassing the property he rented, because once tenant agreement is signed, permanent consent is given to the tenant that he can live in the property he rented (as long as agreement exists) ... or in marriage and sex, as long as marriage is valid, no consent is required for sex.**

So, for wife to declare rape as rape, she has to claim that she is raped (someone had sex with her without her consent) ... but since in Islamic marriage there is no rape as consent is there all the time by default, due to marriage contract, she can only contest such case on basis of excessive abuse. Thus:

Type one rape goes out of window.

In type two rape, rape is accompanied with violence. Islam do not recognises rape part, but recognises violence (physical abuse) as criminal violation… considering that as excessive abuse.

In third type rape, since ‘sex and marriage’ in Islam goes hand in hand, Islam do not recognise violation of trust when sex happens within marriage ... at time of marriage, permanent consent for sex is given by wife to husband, and thus having sex by husband is not violation of trust or against consent. Hence third types of rape where husband is culprit, in Islamic marriage (actually, in any marriage) do not exists (husband cannot violate trust when having sex with wife).

Punishment: It is responsibility of state to give justice, and only state can give punishment (unless one in relationship gives clandestine punishment … like wife is rich, spends on her husband, and now decline to spend on him … or husband works for wife and she sacks him … or wife took violation of husband so seriously that she divorces him ... ).

State can punish a husband on ground of excessive abuse to his wife … and that excessive abuse could be due to whatever reasons, be that reason forced sex, anger, frustration, revenge, financial problems, pride, bossiness or … xyz.

*Now let see if same situation exists both ways or is it only husband that gets away (and is only related to rape): *… Situation works both ways.

Let see cases … please read carefully, so that it would become understanding easier:

*Case one (marriage makes difference): *
Married: If wife takes (steals) money from husband to fulfil her justified needs without his knowledge or consent (relying on marriage contract and consent), than husband cannot sue her for stealing … just like, if husband have sex with her without her consent (relying on marriage contract or consent), she cannot sue him for rape.

Unmarried: If such happens between two unmarried man and woman, than in above cases, man can sue the girl for stealing, and similarly girl can sue the man for rape.

Case two (marriage makes no difference):
Married: If wife defraud or deceive her husband (take money from him with or without his knowledge or consent, to give to someone, or for whatever reason not related to marriage contract) then husband can sue his wife on charges of cheating or defraud (as that is not part of marriage contract). In same way, if husband abuse her (physically or mentally harms her) for sex than she can sue her husband on charges of excessive abuse (as abuse is not part of marriage contract).

Unmarried: If such happens between two unmarried man and woman, than in above cases, man can sue the girl for stealing, cheating and defrauding, and similarly girl can sue the man for rape and excessive abuse.

So ... one can see that when it comes to marriage ... marriage contract nullifies many things, that includes ' rape in marriage' by husband ... or 'stealing money' by wife from husband for justified personal or family needs. But what is not part of marriage contract, things do not change.

Excessive abuse and punishment: You are right that divorce is not the only punishment of excessive abuse. State can even put the husband in prison for few months to punish him. But if wife wants to divorce a husband who she thinks abused her, than she can, and abuse would be enough excuse for judge to grant her divorce without her paying back ‘mahr’ … actually, judge can even award her more than that, by asking husband to pay her for abuse, that could be more than just writing off ‘mahr’... but then, judge can just consider it appropriate to grant divorce (khula) but ask wife to return back the mahr.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

No they are not. Leave religion aside, purely on logically speaking and in real sense of marriage, "Rape" is the term which should never be used in conjunction with "marital" relation.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^^^ You are absolutely right. Rape means sex without consent and in every human marriage laws, marriage means wife giving permanent consent of sex to husband (that is part of marriage by default ... and every person in every society knows that).

Hence sex cannot happen within marriage where consent is not there … and that automatically means no possibility of rape within marriage.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

Kindly corroborate your stance when you say 'Islam does not recognize this and accepts that'. you need to justify your assertions

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^ your idea of ‘consent’ is very twisted. Earlier, you wrote a looong essay on this issue in #29](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=29) . Kindly have your wife read that glorious post of yours and ask her what does she think about your views.

You listed three types of assults that can be termed as rape

then you said

Are you sure about what you said. non-violent but done when your wife is not in conscious state. it goes out of the window? Are you kidding me or what? we may not term it as rape but it is extremely disgusting and indecent act. Your wife is cross with you on some genuine issue and does not want to be in bed with you. You then give her some sedative and do the ‘non-violent’ act. horrible views you have there

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^^^ I wrote down the Islam I understand and follow. I would not argue with you, as your Islamic understanding and belief might be different. In the religion you believe, maybe husband and wife have to take consent of each other at every occasion, regardless of their marriage to each other.

For instance, in Islam I Know and follow, after contract of marriage, no consent is required on certain things:

Wife does not have to take consent from husband when using or eating what belongs to husband (food, accommodation, toilet, shower, garden, bed, chair, or whatever … that husband owns), she use or eat things that is bought by husband and belongs to husband as her right … no need of consent from husband.

Same is with husband, that he does not need to take consent from wife every time he wants sex (and ask her only as courtesy or to make sure if she has red ribbon on or green. :))

Ho sakta hay aap nay kuch aur seekha aur dekha ho ga … for instance, wife wants to go to toilet, and if house belongs to husband including toilet, then she asks husband before using toilet that if she can use the toilet or not … who knows, husband might not allow her to use toilet. If she wants a cup of tea but since husband bought both cup and tea from his earning, she first needs to take consent from husband and if he allows then only she uses cup and make tea to drink, else she deprives herself (akhir cup or tea bivi kee tou nahi, jiss kee hay woh ijazat day gaa tou hee wife chaye pee saktee hay).

Chalo … Islam apna apna … mazhab apna apna … aur understanding religion is also one’s own. Aap khush raho.

I am not one of those who do suicide attacks to suppress or kill people whose understanding of Islam is different than theirs. So ... as far as I am concerned, I am happy. :)

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

@ Saleem

Great and very elaborate posts. Some other points can be made but those who have their minds set on something (basically brainwashed), cannot get the idea.

Even if one takes the religion out, the same conclusions can be made. :)

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^^^ Brother, thanks.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

The whole I give her a cup of tea and she gives me sex sounds a bit like you're talking about a whore rather than a wife but carry on..

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^^^ I think your understanding of the subject is not only crooked but strange and absurd. How stupidly you took a simple example to make conclusion is really surprising. :)

It is not matter of a cup of tea for sex, I was talking about marriage contract, where consent for many things are not required ... be they having cup of tea bought by other or fulfillment of sexual desires.

If you have any brain to think, can you tell me why people (man and woman) marry? If consent was required for everything, than why marry? [In west, there are not even social or religious requirements to marry]

Is food, clothing, accommodation and worldly desires of a daughter too hard for a father to fulfill, that they let their daughters get married? ... What about father who is rich and powerful (even could look after son-in-laws worldly needs), why they should marry their daughters, why not keep them at home?

It seems, you think father who get their daughter married, wants their daughter to become whore, and if girl is rich and can look after all her worldly needs, than probably in your opinion, father wants that their daughter becomes whore who works for free, right?

Please ask those who gave you education, teachers or parents, and reply back.

I am asking you because it seems, your understanding is that a girl becomes whore if she gets married and fulfills sexual desire of her husband. That is the reason you are thinking what she gets to become whore (provide sex to her husband) ... and protesting that ... just cup of tea for sex? ... what a measurement and comparison ... right?

It seems, in your opinion, since a wife is a whore it matters what husband provides her in exchange for sex ... as regardless, husband provides a penny or pound, if your understanding is that sex in marriage is a trade and not a contract where one provides other person their needs, than certainly your assessment is right ... a woman becoming whore for a cup of tea after marriage. :)

So, now you should tell all women you know (women around you) that do not get married, as that is cheap way of becoming whore. Tell them that they can earn much more from various men whoring as business, rather whore for a person who might not be able to even fulfill all their needs.

Do not say people should marry for love, as it might be possible that you only seen love marriages where people date, make love, and then get married (though love do not need to have cover of marriage ... only need is cover of bed sheet) ... but in Islam we do not believe that one have to start knowing, dating and then loving someone before marriage.

Re: Rape - Quran and Hadith

^ Good answer for bad and low level comment.