Qasr Prayer

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Qasr Prayer

:hehe:

People be easy …

Qasr = safri - this is not = qazda

For Qasr …

This is for the Hanafi Fiqh:

Qasr is wajib if travel takes place for greater than 48 miles and the time of prayer arrives, counted from the point of departure to the point where the prayer is being offered.

Qasr rakah are as follows:

Fajr: 2 Nafila 2 Fard
Dhuhr: 2 Fard
Asr: 2 Fard
Maghrib: 3 Fard 2 Nafila
Isha: 2 Fard + 3 Witr

Generally the Sunnah become Nafila in Safr (Qasr) prayer - I tend not to do anything other than the Fard for Dhuhr (Qasr), but will often do the Nafila for Fajr (Qasr) and Maghrib (Qasr)

Qazda is different, Rakahs for Qadza are:

Fajr: 2 Sunnah + 2 Fard (Make sure your Sunnahs in Fajr are before the Fard not after) if before Dhuhr after Sunrise, if offering after Dhuhr then 2 Fard Qazda only.

Dhuhr: 4 Fard
Asr: 4 Fard
Maghrib: 3 Fard
Isha: 4 Fard + 3 Witr

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Re: Qasr Prayer

some believe it’s 60 miles…

not from the point of departure…it’s rather from the city limits.

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Travel can be any distance. If you commute to/from work more than a 100 miles, that is not travel because you do this a matter of routine. If going to another city is not the norm, and you leave home with the intention of "traveling", then distance becomes less relevant. That's just what I have gathered from what I've heard from various scholar explaining what constitutes travel for the purpose of Qasr.

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brother, with due respect, what i've been told that any movement over 60 miles [from/to city limits] constitute 'traveling' ... city limits matter a lot if you live or travel to or both happens to be a metropolis. not doing qasr is kufraan-e-ne'mat [denying Allah's bounties]. same is true for skipping fard roze.

wallaho 'aalam bissawaab.

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I totally agree that Qasr is definitely a rehmah from Allah (s.w.t) and a source of ease. However what I have said on the travel bit is purely from what I have heard and understood. Please see the media below.

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Yes it is either 48 miles or 58 miles ... there are differing views ...

I meant the journey (or musaafir state of a person) is counted when he or she sets off on their journey after making the intention of travelling ... I would prefer the 48 miles opinion if it is taken between city limits and point to point as 58 miles option to be utilitarian about this.

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the distance between city limit and city centre is variable so i heard read that it's always from the city centre...it's a huge difference if your city is a mega city.

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From another point of view ... the distance of 60 miles roughly corresponds to 10 hours horse ride, 15 hours by camel - ave 12 hours. If travel time instead of travel distance was taken as the criterion for being considered a traveller then you can accommodate a different understanding.

But it is better to take the option that creates more ease for the Ummah.

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True - there are about 100 cities in the world that have a diameter longer than 40 km - so if the next city is a only 40 miles away (edge to edge) and the starting point is in one corner of a "mega city" and the end point is somewhere on the opposite side of the second city - you could easily go beyond 100 miles in total distance.

As noted earlier I always do a point to point measurement. That's one for the Muftis.

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This is incorrect from what I gather

Sunnah prayers are due on the traveler, but they have an extra Rehma attached to them always in any case, that missing them on rare occasions is permissible

I can provide two quotes:
*
The Book of Prayer (Kitaab-us-Salaat)
*THE LAPSED (QADA) PRAYERS
Says there is no reduction in Sunnah Prayers and they are due. cannot copy paste (copyright!)

SeekersGuidance - Are We Supposed to Pray Sunna and Witr Prayers When Traveling? – Answers
*“…Sunna Salāh should not be unduly missed during the journey. However if the musāfir is in a hurry then, apart from the Sunna of Fajr, it will be permissible for him to omit the other Sunna salāhs. If he is not in a hurry nor does he fear his companions leaving him behind (for e.g. when he is comfortably residing for a number of days at a place) then he should offer all the Sunnah Salāhs…”
*

The Arabs mentioned in first page who do not teach to pray Sunnah, in regular Salah, have deviated. Is everyone agreed on this?

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Unless you have knowledge of the various fiqhs - you cannot make such claims. You can say that you prefer your fiqh and consider it correct and that the difference of opinion is acceptable at the very most (bid’a Idafiya) … I have other references that suggest otherwise for the Sunnah of a traveller, if you note I didn’t negate the Sunnahs, I said they are acceptable to be prayed … we may differ on whether they remain Sunnah or not … difference of scholarly opinion is a blessing in Islam, because instead of clear cut “I’m right you are wrong” - it enables us to say “yours is acceptable, but I feel mine is better” …

After checking again, I note the Hanafis are stricter about Sunnahs in Qasr than the other madhabs … JazakAllahuKhair brother vroom :slight_smile:

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Jazak Allah

I do not know the positions of other fiqhs. However, that does not detract me from the possibility that the teaching mentioned in previous page is deviant. I repeat that allegation here
Generally I wouldn't put a stop sign, for my self, on thinking something is deviant just because someone claims that is the opinion of another madhab. The drawback of this is that if the position of the other madhab is narrated correctly and it is what I claimed to be deviant, then I am more likely to be deviated myself [something which would require me to change my opinion].

However I did not think this comment was descriptive of any other madhab but communities which are teaching this

[QUOTE]
I was taught by arabs so I typically don't pray sunnah anyways except for the 2 sunnah for fajr, because what we were taught was that they were special. But for qasr I can't for the life of me figure out which one of these I'm supposed to follow.
[/QUOTE]

If they are not teaching Sunnah Prayers, then yes I do believe this position to be deviated

If you have information regarding other madhabs that would take ownership of the above teaching, then that would make me take back my words and accept the position. I am not talking about shady characters narrating 'kinda' against Sunnah prayers. Their testimony is not acceptable. It would have to be from respectable people. Like for example someone who says the Hanafi position is that it is permissible not to pray the Sunnah prayers during travel. The statement is true but the omission of the fact the Hanafi position that the Sunnah prayers should be prayed is a major omission. Likewise I have seen the positions of other madhabs being understated. Much of the influence nowadays as we see on this thread is from islamqa, and laal dupatta walay (and friends) who quote claims from here there and everywhere.

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Psyah there is no personal criticism of you or any other poster. I think you are an Abid. In Sha Allah that is clear

I have been reading some hanafi works from more then a hundred years ago, and the Aqeedah towards Sunnah mentioned was eye opening. So moves towards eliminating the Sunnah Prayers, which are abound in the entire Ummah, I am seeing as a Bidah

If anyone has any concrete information on other madhabs that would be beneficial

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-Peace brother vroom

It appears that we are both talking from the point of view of the Hanafi madhab. My source for saying that Sunnah is treated like a Nafila during travel is from the book that I use for my Fiqh related material. Although, I am quite surprised that people are saying that we should pray Sunnah during travel, when in personnel experience this has not been the case.

The book I am using is ... by Shaykh Mohammad Akram Nadwi, publish by Angelwing, Al-Fiqh Al-Islami according to the Hanafi Madhhab, ISBN 978-095557790-1 Page 199 ... quote:

"Sunnahs and nawafil during travel

Sunnahs are like nawafil during travelling, in other words, one is permitted to do them. ..."

So it is possible there are differences within the madhhab itself. Rationally speaking the purpose of qasr is to make things easier - but sort of defeats the purpose if the Sunnahs should still be undertaken in the same way.

Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I am not saying the Sunnah prayers should be shortened ... rather I am saying they can be omitted i.e. not offered, but if prayed should be done completely ... so when we read the statement "there is no shortening of Sunnahs in qasr" it should be taken as no converting 4 rakahs to 2 rakahs, but that does not mean the 4 cannot be missed entirely ... I believe they can, and my personal experience with travelling with many Hanafi groups has been this way too.

And when it comes to the question of Sunnah of RasoolAllah (SAW) we need to determine whether RasoolAllah (SAW) offered Sunnah prayers during travel as he (SAW) would offer normal Sunnahs when not during travel, because in this case not doing the "Sunnah rakahs" would itself be a Sunnah when travel conditions are in place. Do you see what I mean?

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Salam Alaikum

[quote]

It appears that we are both talking from the point of view of the Hanafi madhab. My source for saying that Sunnah is treated like a Nafila during travel is from the book that I use for my Fiqh related material. Although, I am quite surprised that people are saying that we should pray Sunnah during travel, when in personnel experience this has not been the case.

The book I am using is ... by Shaykh Mohammad Akram Nadwi, publish by Angelwing, Al-Fiqh Al-Islami according to the Hanafi Madhhab, ISBN 978-095557790-1 Page 199 ... quote:

"Sunnahs and nawafil during travel

Sunnahs are like nawafil during travelling, in other words, one is permitted to do them. ..."
[/quote]

Yes it would be interesting to see whether the Hanafi position is split on this. Both my sources, above, encourage Sunnah doing travel, both say it is due upon us. I have faith upon this group of Believers. I do not take the word of the book quoted by you, as indictive of the hanafi position because anyone whose name ends with nadwi I see as a ghair muqallid (and bad aqeedah.) I do not want to character assassinate the author but he is even known as salafi by people similar to him!

[quote]

So it is possible there are differences within the madhhab itself. Rationally speaking the purpose of qasr is to make things easier - but sort of defeats the purpose if the Sunnahs should still be undertaken in the same way.
[/quote]

I see your reasoning, it has its strengths but passing wind does not require istinja, just wudu to be redone. Rationalism has its place but that place is not in everything

[quote]

Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I am not saying the Sunnah prayers should be shortened ... rather I am saying they can be omitted i.e. not offered, but if prayed should be done completely ... so when we read the statement "there is no shortening of Sunnahs in qasr" it should be taken as no converting 4 rakahs to 2 rakahs, but that does not mean the 4 cannot be missed entirely ... I believe they can, and my personal experience with travelling with many Hanafi groups has been this way too.
[/quote]

The material I have linked to say that Sunnah Salah is not to be shortened, and are due during travel (one says 'must be prayed' other says 'Sunnah Salah should not be unduly missed during journey'

I have read your position during travel as ''should be omitted, are not due upon us'' and the opposing view to be ''must be prayed, are due upon us''

[quote]

And when it comes to the question of Sunnah of RasoolAllah (SAW) we need to determine whether RasoolAllah (SAW) offered Sunnah prayers during travel as he (SAW) would offer normal Sunnahs when not during travel, because in this case not doing the "Sunnah rakahs" would itself be a Sunnah when travel conditions are in place. Do you see what I mean?
[/quote]

I do see what you mean
Although it would be salafi in nature but it would provide refutation of the position i have posted, and one of the positions you have given details about. I wouldnt personally attempt something like this, nor would i advise anyone else to but if you think it would refute the positions i have posted please do so

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No no MashaAllah - you have broken this down very well ... :)

I think you are partially right about the Nadwi group ... I come from a Deobandi background so in fiqh I follow them, although my Sufi connection in the Shadhili school has enabled me to embrace aspects that you speak about on this forum. The Nadwi family are scholarly in fiqh matters, Hanafites but not really known to be Sufi orientated, so you are right ... I think no one can claim to be ghair muqallid anyway ... Even the Salafis do taqlid of their own scholars ... so I think this type of classification is unfair on all people. It is simply a difference of opinion in this case, inshaAllah.

You are right also that rationalism is not always counted, but the reason given by the Hanafi school for making qasr wajib rather than mustahab or muba is because the Hanafi scholars consider it denial of a gift of leniency for not doing the qasr ... so on that basis the prayer should qualify in being "lenient", also the matter of the fard being more important than the Sunnah is also prevalent here.

I am not familiar with the Barelvi position on this and I take it you are presenting their position here. I must say that I find it very interesting that there is a difference in this matter. My personal feelings are that when my himma increases for various matters then I will increase my actions to include more Sunnahs and more Nafila ... At the moment this weak person is trying to take matters slowly ...

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Nadwis are deobandis from nadwa, lucknow
deobandis are nadwis from deoband, dehli
Public » Askimam explained by wiki
“…students of Nadwatul Ulama call themselves Nadwi’s but they are also Deobandi’s.” nadwa: [The institution was intended to be a modified version of Deoband.]

“Darul Uloom Deoband was founded in the year 1283A.H. This was during the rule of the English who’s mission was to eradicate Islam from …” Nadwa: [The foundation stone was laid by John Briscott Hewitt, Lieutenant Governor of India on November 28, 1906.[4]](Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama - Wikipedia)]

The position I have highlighted is from people who would be recognized as belonging to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah, so yes they are Barelvi

I have found a more concrete proof of the position being Hanafi, with an authoritative Hanafi source cited:

CAN A TRAVELLER MISS HIS SUNAN OF SALAH?
There is no qasr for the sunan which means that they must be
prayed fully in a state of ease but can be missed in a state of fear
or worry. (Alamgeeri, V1, P139)

Source : Moulana Muhammed Ilya Attar Qadiri Razavi / Dawat e Islami
page 177
http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/-%20New%20Folder%20(3)/Laws%20of%20Salah.pdf

I have no indication there is difference on this within Hanafis

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Another few questions brother vroom ...

Do you not consider the Nadwis/Deobandis as Hanafis?

Secondly ... If a Sunnah must be prayed, and a Fard must be prayed ... What is the difference between these two?

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I do see them as ghair Muqallid [not reliable] but my last post was not about that.

The nadwi’s book was rejected as Hanafi proof, due to his mashur ghair muqallidness [not reliable hanafi] so we are yet to find a Rival to the positions I have posted. My last post was not an indication that deo/nadwis were not hanafis but nothing has been mentioned from them. So there is no indication [yet] there is a difference within hanafis

A Fard must be prayed, must be prayed. An emphasized Sunnah must be prayed, can be missed [consult an alim for t&c’s].

Peer Saqib Shaami covers Shari categories in the intro here first 20mins:


Title: Is Giyarhvi A Bid’ah

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Peace vroom

JazakAllahuKahir for the link. I actually agree with everything maulana said … My own learnings are very similar …

Now …

According to what was said … A Sunnah Mu’akkadah is something that RasoolAllah (SAW) did persistently and emphasised its importance … and to not do it is Isaah (admonition) and not doing it regularly is punishable.

Sunnah Ghayru Mu’akkadah is something that RasoolAllah (SAW) did not do persistently, it is recommended without emphasis and it is commendable to enjoin it, but to make its omission a habit it becomes disliked.

Personally I would also like to add … and hopefully you would agree with me … that to do any of the affirmative acts ALL the time is permissible, but to require obligations in the things that are not obligations is not allowed, because that becomes (harj)

Now this is my point …

In prayers we have Fard, Wajib, Sunnah Mu’akkadah, and Sunnah Ghayru Mu’akkadah … Fard and Wajib are the only obligations, the rest are less than this …

Also, a slight deviation in my understanding is that maulana sahib said that “to deny the obligatory nature of a fard is kufr” and they said, “to deny a wajib as wajib is not kufr” … From my understanding I have learned that “to deny or change the classification of anything that has a shari’ ruling, when it is unanimously classified that way with no difference of opinion” then it is bid’a … So that applies to fard, wajib, sunnah, etc … but if there is difference of opinion in anything - say one madhhab says the act is fard another says it is wajib then to deny the fard for a wajib or the wajib for a fard give room. Also, that kufr happens when a fard is completely negated in holding any value changing the belief - it will contradict ALL of the established and accepted madhhabs.

Coming back to my point … how can we say we “must” do something when the ruling for it does not allow us to say that it “must” be done? Furthermore, since travel is not a regular practice and is a temporary state then the ruling as stated is not punishable for any of the Sunnahs so long as the practice is not done regularly.

So you can’t blame me for saying that in qasr prayer … “If one chooses to pray them, the Sunnahs must be prayed in full rakahs, but there is no obligation to pray them nor is it disliked to omit them, because safr is not a regular condition”

Please explain where I am being mistaken.