"Put That on My Mastercard, Please"

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Hinna

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

As far as the possibility of whether an Islamic organization may accept donations from a person, whose income has been earned from a source declared to be prohibited by the Shari`ah, the situation may be categorized into two groups:

[list=1]
[li]Where the sources of income of the person are not known to the management of the organization; and[/li]
[li]Where the sources of income of the person are known to the management of the organization. [/li][/list=a]

In the first case, because it is not necessary for the organization to determine the source of income of each individual, who donates to its cause, therefore, it may accept donations from any individual, who may like to donate to it without ascertaining his/her source of income. In such a case, it is possible that the management of an Islamic organization, due to its lack of knowledge of the sources of an individual’s income, may accept his donations, even though his income is derived from sources, which the Shari`ah declares to be prohibited.

In the second case, where the source of income is known to the management of the organization, the decision of acceptance or non-acceptance of the donation from such an individual, in my opinion, should rest on the attitude of the individual toward the directives of the Shariah*. If the individual in question is repentant of his sin of being involved in earning through a source, which the *Shariah had declared to be prohibited, and wants to dispose of the money so earned, without spending any part of it on himself or his family, then the organization may accept money from such a person. On the other hand, if the individual has an attitude of transgression toward the directives of the Shariah and, thus, considers it allowable for himself to take interest or earn through any other available means, irrespective of their standing in the *Shariah*, then he may be requested to spend his money in some other cause, except in the cause of Islam.

A close examination of the foregoing opinion would show that it is, in fact, not the prohibited source of one’s earnings but one’s attitude toward such earnings that should play a decisive role in whether or not his donations be accepted by an Islamic organization. The reason for which I ascribe to this opinion is that a donation, from whatever source it is generated remains a donation. A donation generated from income through interest does not become interest for the organization, which accepts such donation; it remains a donation. Nevertheless, accepting donations from an individual is to give such individual patronage of the concerned organization. Patronage of an Islamic organization, in my opinion, should not be given to those individuals whose disregard of the directives of the Shari`ah are publicly known and acknowledged.

I hope this helps.

The Learner

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited June 11, 2001).]

22

The thing is living without a Credit card is quite difficult in the western world. I mean consider online shopping and paying bills for starters. I have my Card connected to my regular account. The credit card automatically gets paid few days before its due. Simple!

As for interest on normal Access Acounts

The simple solution is just goto the bank and ask them not to pay interest on yur account. I did and it took them 37 seconds to do it (woohoo now I dont get all the 15 cents everymonth as I used to). I think the islamic organisations need to worry more about people who delibrately have Interest walay accounts.

Guy with the Urdu Custom Title :~P

23

what I've done is I've been keeping all of my bank statements..... I'll then total up the interest and get rid of it by donating it to the Edhi Foundation in Pakistan.

24

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

mad…that is exactly what i am gonna doo..

25

[quote]
Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
what I've done is I've been keeping all of my bank statements..... I'll then total up the interest and get rid of it by donating it to the Edhi Foundation in Pakistan.
[/quote]

If someone doesn't have the old bank statements then you can request your bank to provide how much interest you have been paid since you opened your account.

Only one thing that interest is not even allowed to be used for charity either. It can be used in places e.g building public toilets but (I don't like to use this word "I think" in religious matters but)I think it is going into too much detail so it is better to donate it and not keep it to yourself. wallaho alam bis sawab.

26

Excuse me, but if you think that donating interest income to a chariatble organization is islamically correct, then maybe you will should get an opinion from a scholar.

What I have been able to find out is that giving away interest income does not absolve you of Riba, and nor should the islamic organizations accept those donations if they know that these are from interest.

However, in these days, many ppl gladly consume interest income, rather they go to extra lengths to secure a better interest rate from the bank. So for them these things do not matter, as they think its just one more of the islamic rulings which are not inline with the changing times.

From a classical sharia point of view, income from haraam sources can not be purified by donating to islamic causes.

The solution: Stay away from interest. Use non-interest bearing checking accounts. Do not add interest to your account, nor pay interest. Do not deal with interest. Do not hire others to track your interest income/expenses. In two words - “Stay Away”

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Peacemaker (edited June 11, 2001).]

27

so where does time value of money fit in the whole interest equation. and what if the "interest" that you are getting is not keeping pace with the time value of money..

Partypooer you are probably the only one here who can get a level headed answer on this subject but I invite others to try as well.

additionally what are the differences between interest as we know it vs riba as practised 1400 years ago

28

What I read is that should you have gained money through interest, that money is haraam. Hence you are not allowed to spend it, as it is something that is not lawful. All that can be done is is to give it a to a charity.

However, one should not expect to be rewarded for such a donation. Rather than spending something of yours in Allah's cause, you are merely getting rid of something that is impure and which you have no right to possess.

29

Peacemaker, I think this is what I had said in my post that it is not allowed to use Riba for donating it to charitable organisations.

30

1) First of all, what is Riba? Is a credit card a form of Riba? I think not.

2) Where does the Quran forbid earning interest which is not Riba (i.e. not excessive)? To be honest, I don't think it does.

My humble opinion.

31

Riba is defined as Interest.

32

Technically you can argue ad infinitum on what is Riba, why is it different from current day commercial interest, what are its conditions, is it only prohibited when it is excessive, why is it prohibited in the first place, how do you factor in the inflation which was not here 1400 years ago, and so on and so forth.

These are all valid questions. To those who seeks answers there are many opinions available. At the end of the day, you, yourself, have to decide which opinion has the strongest daleel (reasoning) behind it. After knowing all the facets of this issue you then you decide what you want to do.

After making an informed decision, it is your deeds and your money. At this point, I am quite clear that the religious scholars may offer contradictory opinions. To those of us, who feel the opinion is correct that all interest is riba and hence prohibited, please note that collecting such interest and giving it away in charity is not a prescribed solution. Thats all.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

To those who want to argue that present day interest is NOT riba and hence is not prohibited in the first place, this is a non-issue. Have fun doing whatever you want with it, including giving it to charity. However, if you are donating it to an islamic charity, please be kind enough to let them know as many islamic charities do not accept donations derived from interest or income from a bank (including salary of bank employees). Clear.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

33

I don't think that I am level headed enough to answer the issue about interest. So I have decided to answer it with an unlevel head.

Credit Card is self explanatory ( Borrowed Card). Credit is always going to be a loan of some sort. If we have no intention of paying the interest on late payments, then surely we do not need the credit knowing very well that the Non-believer is going to charge an interest at any given opportunity for the late payments. Even if this is not the case, there is no need to constantly borrow and repay, borrow and repay as a form of business. The alternative should be a Debit Card as the finance is used immediately and belongs to you, not borrowed, I hope!. It is just a quicker way of accessing the Finance rather than trodding along with a money bag.

Bank accounts also produce interest on savings, however you can choose to save with an Islamic Bank, who will just look after the money for you and give no interest on the savings. There are some actually out there that operate this system. Alternatively, theres always the floorboards or under the mattress!

Riba, whether earned intentionally or unintentionaly is not permitted.

Payment on the other hand is questionable as it depends on the condition for acceptance in the first place. However, the Qur'aan clears this up.

'He will provide for him from somewhere he never expected'. 65:3

'Allah provides for anyone He wills without reckoning'. 3:37

So the question that needs asking is why do we Muslims put ourselves in such positions that are on the brink?

34

assalamu alaikum,

my two pennies:
you CAN find out ways of avoiding interest in your account, you don't have any excuse of having an account with interest accumulation.

the fund raiser who said "charge to your credit cards" definitely didn't do it right if that is all he said. he should have added the words "don't charge more than you can pay". the sister is right about fund raiser, they don't have much of an Islamic look. i'm from DFW too, thanks to Allah that I didn't go to the one she described otherwise I would have to walk out.

the only rational to charging/putting one's donation to credit card i can think is:
people make pledges but don't pay in time.

i know these fund raisers try to push people to the wall, and its not fair.

dealing in INTEREST is HARAM, whether you take it or give it.

the only people who talk about "interest/riba 1400 years ago, and current interest" are those who want to make ways to deal in interest. why do we forget about the "SATURDAY" cheat jews used to do??? didn't Allah mention that story for our lesson?

use of a credit card depends on level of taqwa... because when you signup for a credit card you SIGN the AGREEMENT that you WILL pay interest if you are unable to pay the amount you charged in full or if payment is late

we should be using "visa"/"master" debt cards instead, which take money from your account directly.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited June 11, 2001).]

35

The issues you guys are discussing, i.e. What is interest? What is riba? and how is it one form of interest different from another? What should we do with the interest we earn from banks?
These issue are not dealt by scholars alone, these issues are actually mainly dealt with by Islamic Economists. There are only a handful of institutions in the world devoting their time and efforts to these and I suggest people who are interested in this to seek their information there.

The Islamic banks you see in the world today are also as a result of efforts by these. But they are very limited in number right now.
Earning interest and giving it as charity is not a solution, staying away is. But in this world when you have interest involved in almost all bank accounts, the ONLY option for people who maintian accounts in normal banks (as opposed to islamic banks) is to give out the interest they earn as charity.
This is what people are supposed to do when they are earning interest on their accounts, it is obviously not right to maintain these accounts if people have a better option.
But there is nothing other than charity that you can do with this interest money that you get so long as you are getting it.

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited June 11, 2001).]

36

[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
*so where does time value of money fit in the whole interest equation. and what if the "interest" that you are getting is not keeping pace with the time value of money.
*
[/quote]

Mr. Fraudia I don't understand this
question, could you please explain?
Are you referring to exchange rates?

37

What Fraudia is referring to is the undelying rate of inflation.

$1 is not worth the same from year to year, due to inflation. If I recieve a dollar in year 1, by year 2 if inflation rose by 1%, then that dollar is worth only 99 cents in terms of the value of currency in year 2.

This is why a car cost, say, $1500 dollars several decades ago, and an equavalent car today would cost $20,000.

38

According to my limited knowledge of economics, inflation is due to the loss of value of money and hence the interest is introduced in the capital system to overcome this problem. If and only If you can isolate money loosing it’s value then you CAN have an Islamic System. In Pakistan they are trying to introduce a riba free system while money will still keep that property of loosing it’s value. It will be a disaster and at the end they will all blame that Islam doesn’t work.

The point of money loosing it’s value is very easy to understand but usually misunderstood. Let’s say we use gold-amount as a currency rather than it’s value (coz value increases and decreases) then no matter how hard u try but you won’t have any inflation coz the amount of gold would stay the same. The prices of products might change which is usually related to inflation but you would be restricted to buying things which you can afford. Hence, the supply and demand curves won’t be jumping up and down and hence virtually no inflation resulting into a stable economy.

In the capital system, the money is worthless. Take an example of Kuwaiti dinar as it was devalued during Gulf war so much that you could buy a can of coke but before that it was equivalent to 2 sterling pounds. The dinar was worthless as we associated value to the currency where currency doesn’t have it’s own value. This is the problem of the capital society as we know from the examples of the Far East that due to a sudden external flow of cash their own currencies tumbled and hence the economy’s downfall. I think capital system is also unstable.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

39

I forgot to mention that credit cards works in a similar manner. You use currency which you haven't seen and probably don't have in your account. The idea is to push the consumers' buying power up a bit. Hence, it is all based on false money.

40

Khan sahib

You have only expanded my question. I am very familar with the underlying economics here.

The point is that we have a certain situation i.e. in an inflationary economy. The idea is not to say what a perfect state would be, but how do you live in an imperfect economy where inflation exists..now what.