PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Doppleganger

FC is the border security force or Rangers of NWFP / Balochistan. It is headed by army officers deputed from the army and trained by them even if it is considered to be a paramilitary under the command of the Interior Ministry. It is time that FC is tested out and further improved. There is another FC (frontier constabulary) that is from KP and is part of the police service of Pakistan. I guess that there are like the NO FEAR commandoes of Punjab but the federal govt still deploys them all over Pakistan unlike the punjabi elite force.

Btw, if FC is not liked then the "poonjabi army" is also disliked in balochistan. Right now, the army is in a holding pattern when it should be going actively after TTP and its allies. They have not only killed personnel from all three branches, but they have caused damage to armed forces property including the destruction of prized Orions and AWACs. Heck, MQM got pwned when it had tortured just one major in karachi in the infamous 1991 operation yet there is no all out war against TTP? I can only think that there are internal collaborators + the fact that army plans to use taliban against the northern alliance dominated forces post 2014 or later afghanistan.

Its truly beyond me how any self respecting officer in the Pak Army could live with themselves knowing that so many comrades have died at the hands of these butchers, and yet they not only avoid fighting them, but the govt is offering them peace talks...

Forget Army pride, how about just shame... Is there no shame left in these people?

[Captain1]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Med911

Why is this so complicated? *All the trouble seems to emanate from the TTP in NW. * Its close geographically, and is currently the main headquarters of the TTP. Its where they are free to recuperate and organize. The Army and govts writ does not extend into NW, and so obviously its a place where militancy festers.

oh bhai everyone claims to know that and says that, but here PTI asked army to leave Swat and Malakand, no? Swat and Malakand are FAR FAR away from North Waziristan, no? Neither Swat nor Malakand can be used to surround North Waziristan. These are mutually exclusives. You must have read so far that army doesn't really want to touch N Waziristan.

[Captain1]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Med911

Its truly beyond me how any self respecting officer in the Pak Army could live with themselves knowing that so many comrades have died at the hands of these butchers, and yet they not only avoid fighting them, but the govt is offering them peace talks...

Forget Army pride, how about just shame... Is there no shame left in these people?

This is EXACTLY why they don't teach in army to act on your own, imagine if every "self respecting officer" started taking action where THEY think wrong is taking place... what would happen? Its only higher ups in the army who decide what to do and what not to do, rest of the army men are trained and paid to be sheep.

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Captain1

This is EXACTLY why they don't teach in army to act on your own, imagine if every "self respecting officer" started taking action where THEY think wrong is taking place... what would happen? Its only higher ups in the army who decide what to do and what not to do, rest of the army men are trained and paid to be sheep.

Im talking about the Army as a whole. They dont even seem to care that there own have been killed.

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Captain1

oh bhai everyone claims to know that and says that, but here PTI asked army to leave Swat and Malakand, no? Swat and Malakand are FAR FAR away from North Waziristan, no? Neither Swat nor Malakand can be used to surround North Waziristan. These are mutually exclusives. You must have read so far that army doesn't really want to touch N Waziristan.

If there is a place where the Taliban continue to thrive, then no matter how many times you clear them out, they will just reorganize and rearm in their safe haven in NW and return again. Swat will never be truly safe as long as there are Taliban safe havens left. Distance is not an issue.

How are they mutually exclusive? If a criminal organization is kicked out of one area and they retreat to another where its safe, the existence of the second location is considered a liability. Think of militancy like Cancer. If you dont excise the Cancer from ALL locations, then it will simply return and you will never cure the patient. The Pakistan army isn't dealing with the primary cancer, they are simply trying to control its metastases.

[Doppleganger]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

I don't think that captain has said no to going to waziristan, so I don't know what you are arguing about? Be it the Taliban apologist or anti-Taliban, the point is that the current holding pattern isn't useful if Taliban could brazenly launch attack on malala

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Doppleganger

I don't think that captain has said no to going to waziristan, so I don't know what you are arguing about? Be it the Taliban apologist or anti-Taliban, the point is that the current holding pattern isn't useful if Taliban could brazenly launch attack on malala

Im talking about the Army as a whole... As an institution. Im not referring to any individual.

As an institution, the loss of so many of their own is not enough for them to want to take out these killers.

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Doppleganger

FC is the border security force or Rangers of NWFP / Balochistan. It is headed by army officers deputed from the army and trained by them even if it is considered to be a paramilitary under the command of the Interior Ministry. It is time that FC is tested out and further improved. There is another FC (frontier constabulary) that is from KP and is part of the police service of Pakistan. I guess that there are like the NO FEAR commandoes of Punjab but the federal govt still deploys them all over Pakistan unlike the punjabi elite force.

Btw, if FC is not liked then the "poonjabi army" is also disliked in balochistan. Right now, the army is in a holding pattern when it should be going actively after TTP and its allies. They have not only killed personnel from all three branches, but they have caused damage to armed forces property including the destruction of prized Orions and AWACs. Heck, MQM got pwned when it had tortured just one major in karachi in the infamous 1991 operation yet there is no all out war against TTP? I can only think that there are internal collaborators + the fact that army plans to use taliban against the northern alliance dominated forces post 2014 or later afghanistan.

Poon-Jabi... Whats that about?

[Ali_Syed]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

Everyone in the know, says that the Talibans main center of operations is in North Waziristan. Now there is no police force in that area, so the only ones who could clear it up are the Army, yet they wont go in there. instead, all they do is defend surrounding areas and try to prevent the Taliban from getting out into other areas. Containment is the name of the game with the TTP as far as the Army is concerned. they aren't trying to defeat the outright.

I dont see how you could possibly finish the Taliban if you dont attack them in their base of operations. Its not a lack of capacity to fight the Taliban that has allowed them to survive this long, its the Armies refusal to fight them in consistent and sincere manner. Unless they attack them in North Waziristan, they will never completely defeat them.

FATA has its own dynamics, this topic is basically regarding Swat/Malakand which are settled areas and have police/IB and other civilian organizations. Its about time that each and every department starts functioning according to their roles.

As far as Fata is concerned the army cannot free up resources for any new operation (NWA or otherwise). The army is stretched thin due to their engagement in Balochistan, Swat/Malakand and other areas of Fata. Secondly like I have been mentioning in the past, Pakistan is using only operations to win this war, other aspects of counter terrorism like good governance, political reforms in troubled areas, development & changes in counter terrorism laws are all missing.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Doppleganger

Why not hand over area to FC as they have been touted to be improved and better skilled now by kiyani? You don’t use soldiers to police areas but rather to kill, kill, kill.

Army should be the last resort. Who do we use now if army isn’t up to task? The Justice League? or the NO FEAR commandoes doing durgat of faislabadis recently?

This! :k:

[Ali_Syed]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Med911

If there is a place where the Taliban continue to thrive, then no matter how many times you clear them out, they will just reorganize and rearm in their safe haven in NW and return again. Swat will never be truly safe as long as there are Taliban safe havens left. Distance is not an issue.

How are they mutually exclusive? If a criminal organization is kicked out of one area and they retreat to another where its safe, the existence of the second location is considered a liability. Think of militancy like Cancer. If you dont excise the Cancer from ALL locations, then it will simply return and you will never cure the patient. The Pakistan army isn't dealing with the primary cancer, they are simply trying to control its metastases.

The issue with FATA is the porous borders with Afghanistan. The Army conducted operations in Mohmand and Bajaur, but the terrorists simply relocated to Kunar/Nuristan in Afghanistan and are now attacking the country from those places. When the army launches an operation in NWA, they'd simply move over into Khost. Can any operation in Fata succeed in presence of porous borders with unstable Afghanistan (almost all of Eastern Afghanistan neighboring Pakistan is under the sway of taleban)?

The safehavens of TTP and Afghan taleban are on the border areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Why would TTP move to Swat instead of Khost (across the borders)?

[Med911]

Re: PTI to ask for withdrawal of army from Swat and Malakand

@Ali_Syed

FATA has its own dynamics, this topic is basically regarding Swat/Malakand which are settled areas and have police/IB and other civilian organizations. Its about time that each and every department starts functioning according to their roles.

As far as Fata is concerned the army cannot free up resources for any new operation (NWA or otherwise). The army is stretched thin due to their engagement in Balochistan, Swat/Malakand and other areas of Fata. Secondly like I have been mentioning in the past, Pakistan is using only operations to win this war, other aspects of counter terrorism like good governance, political reforms in troubled areas, development & changes in counter terrorism laws are all missing.

I think the Cancer analogy is the most apt. Do you know when a cancer like the Taliban metastasizes, it can spread anywhere?

If NW is safe haven, where do you think the Taliban who were pushed out of Swat would go? If you were of the Swat Taliban escaping from the Army, and you knew NW was a place with like minded people, where the Army wouldnt follow you, where would you go?

And again, the Army is not fighting the Taliban in their main base of operation, which is why they are stretched thin. They are only trying to contain them, they aren't fighting them.

And its a disciplined modern Army of 150,000 (maybe 180,000), plus FC, plus police, backed by tanks, air force jets and gunships, and a huge budget against a loosely organized militant force of a few thousand, a few hundred suicide bombers being their most devastating weapon, with little if any local support, and having access to only the most meager communication technology and which is more or less surrounded on all but one side by the Pakistan Army.. And your telling me they cant attack them where they have their main base? If the could attack South Waziristan despite being so thinly stretched and remain there to defend it, they can take out NW as well I think.