CM's right and with Pakistan's Intellectual Property rights problems I doubt the agreement would be signed anytime soon.
CM & Zakk:
According to you, this news of two accord agreements is farce then?
PT: here is a lesson in deal making. I want to work with you but you make it so hard.
1) I sign an MOU with you. We take pictures and send it out on the wire.
2) When it comes down to the contract, I want more than you can ever offer.
3) We agree on not to waste each others time anymore and cut our losses.
4) five years pass
5) I sign another MOU with you
6) In the meantime, you still haven't fixed your operations or come up to my standards
7) We see how jointly we can raise your standards
8) We try out a small pilot
9) Pilot is successful, risk mitigated we drive volume
10) You benefit, I benefit . Everyone is happy.
Until step 7 is taken, not much is gonna happen.
No PT it's nota farce, it's a framework agreement. It's a start ,but, just a start of negotiations on the subject (and I might add a typical US way of undercutting a multilateral organisation; in this case the WTO).
As CM explained these things take time. The Aid package is on the whole good, the F-16 issue has become a matter of self respect for Pakistan but not as a whole good military sense because it reinforces dependance on US equipment.
Pakistan get 3bilon is simpel. ok stop terorist peapul for reward 3b doler. give litel bit today and pakistan caching one terorist. then one litel bit tomaro and one terorist. that way pakistan get money also teror peapul jail gantanmo!
Dependence on other nations is never a good thing
Self suffiency is the best way. because in the event of problems with that nation and they decide to stop supplying you food or weapons as part of an agreement you will be stuck with nowhere to look to. PAkistan paid cold hard cash for 30 F-16s what did it get in return cold hard soya beans that it did’nt need 
And pakistan has a good military industry which it should develop more. Its nuclear development should be increased not reversed as it currently is being done or put on hold, under pressure from America.
deffering debt is a complete disaster it just puts of debt for some years but in mean time the intrest accumulates and you end up paying 10 times as much!
We are better off this way than handing control to fundos like you always proposed. A developing country like Pakistan has to be dependent on other powerful and technological countries for its development. Its not like your HT Khalifah will come and reinvent everything for us. Like the great AQ Khan said ‘90% of technology is available to us from others, only the 10% is need to achieve success’. Pakistan has a good military industry? Its going to help us if we collaborate with other developed countries to achieve this success rather than starting from scratch.
You said Pakistn has an excellent military industry. Well, as much as the military is disciplined and unique, most of the industries, such as the HMC, Fauji Foundations etc is going in loss. The good military industry statement is laughable if you ask me. I am assuming the industry you talked about is the industry pertaining to development of ammunition, tanks, aviation maitenance etc.
My opinion? It is a farce. It is the 80's all over again. We promise big and when you arent important anymore we slam you hard. Dont expect anything out of this FTA unless the US gets something it wants badly. If the oil pipeline does come into existance. Expect an FTA 3 or 4 years down the road.
CH is right. Step 7 takes place on every product/commodity you wish to trade in. You have to see safety standards, health standards, product quality etc. This is not easy. Heck the WTO has 7 agreements and people still find loopholes. Any FTA with the US is air tight and always to the advantage of the US. We would get little out of it.
But the time frame for the pilot projects takes years if not decades to get the standards they want from us. Look the US trades more with india but why are we getting an FTA? It is all political and nohing is gonna happen. It is alot of hot air where we will see nothing for years if not decades.
Zakk FTA and RTAs are accept in the WTO. They are an exception under article 24 of the GATT and GATS. Other agreements also provide S&D treatment for them.
Self-sufficiency is a hoaxs. It is not economically or politically possible, as the saying goes 2 heads are better than 1. Somewhere someone invents something you need, and you dont have the tech to copy cat it what do you do? You trade.
Wiriting off debt is good but i suggest we dont use the money to write off our debt with the US. lost 1 billion dollars, but the choice of the US. Now we have 2 billion left. Take a year or two more and Inshallah we will have 1 billion more written off the way things are going.
However the main problem is not the debt with the US but rather with the IMF and World Bank. We are the largest creditors of these two countries due to the political govts of the 1990s. We have i believe 2 loans of 8 billion each and we have to pay that back. The UK wrote off our debt and the Paris and London Clubs rescheduled for a decade and more.
Nation wise, Japan is our largest creditor with 5 billion dollars (roughly). Now can someone find out what is the interest rate on the 3 billion dollars we are getting. I doubt this is a grant. The 3 billion must be a loan so what are the conditions?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
We are better off this way than handing control to fundos like you always proposed. A developing country like Pakistan has to be dependent on other powerful and technological countries for its development. Its not like your HT Khalifah will come and reinvent everything for us. Like the great AQ Khan said '90% of technology is available to us from others, only the 10% is need to achieve success'. Pakistan has a good military industry? Its going to help us if we collaborate with other developed countries to achieve this success rather than starting from scratch.
[/QUOTE]
Obviously the fundos are like yourself who worship the ground amreeka walks on and anythign islamic is bad in your opinion and backwards. You don't have much to offer at all except being a slave nation which is not good for anyone muslim or not.
America does not do anything unless its intrests are met. With there masscre and bombings of Afghanistan done and continuing. What do you think of the muslims being killed in afghanistan is that acceptable in your opinion?
What has pakistan gained apart from losing several bases and airstrips, it security, its borders and now more dangerous than ever, it has more debt rescheduling which makes it worse off in the long term.
And yes its military and defence industry is a plus point how you can ridicule that i do not know!
CM I agree the FTA and these trade agreements are totally ridiculous they are 99% in favour of the G8 nations and in this case the Americans will definertly be the winners and pakistan will end up with the short straw once again. The rule of the game is protect your own industries so that they flourish not expose them and give the opportunity to a superior economy to dominate with its own products. China and India have been successful on many front by protecting there industries.
I disagree. Ok fine i am biased. I am pro-free trade and very pro S&D (Special and differential treatment) for developing countries. Economically speaking the infant industry argument works in very few and special cases but has many many draw backs. But you need to protect your industries. It is not in the favour of any developing country to have an FTA with a developed country. You lose out a great deal. Esp in Pakistans case, where our main exports are so limited. If we have a relatively diverse ranger of goods and services i wouldnt mind too much. Currently India is in that position.
Look at both India and China and what they excell at. Take India's IT industry how long was it protected? 15 years maximum. We have industries that have been protected for 50 years. These get lazy and waste valuable economic resources. I am all for the infant industry argument as long as it is opened up after a period of 10 to 15 years. That is how the Asian tigers got to where they are today.
Protect, develop and gradually open up.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
This is just an observation but why wasn't any of the civilian Ministers who did not have American links, (like the Foreign minister) or Information Minister not included in the delegation. Shaukat Aziz should have been in Pakistan for the budget.
[/QUOTE]
Budget is over and done with. opposition was too occupied with their personal agenda so it was passed unopposed.
ChP: I was actually indirectly referring to the fact that many MNA's in the present government are hopping mad at why Shaukat Aziz was taken along to what was the most high profile trip in a Pakistani presidents recent history.
Recorded his whole speech at the peace forum. Not too shabby. He also pulled a few laughs.
President Musharraf urged countrymen to find common ground recognizing Israel. He said so while giving a speech at L.A World Affairs Council dinner at the Beverly Hilton Hotel in Beverly Hills, California on Friday.
According to the President, we should have an open debate regarding this issue. Personally, at first, I was negative but when Mush spoke about the anology regarding Pope and Palestinians, he made me re-think! I reckon, we should have an open debate nation wide regarding accepting Israel as a nation. Jordan and Egypt, two Muslim Countries, have accepted Israel as a Nation, why can’t Pakistan?
[thumb=C]MustatLA.JPG[/thumb]
[thumb=C]MushatLA.JPG[/thumb]
President Musharraf @ L.A
Musharraf: Consider Recognizing Israel
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – As the Middle East struggles with its roadmap to peace, Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf on Sunday urged his countrymen to consider recognizing Israel, a position strongly opposed by religious hardliners.
“This is the responsibility of the nation to decide. This should be seriously thought over. The media should have an open debate on this,” Musharraf said in an interview aired Sunday by the private Geo Television channel.
“The debate should be serious. There should be no emotionalism of the extremists,” he said.
“What is our dispute (with Israel)? We should think,” he said.
“I have been saying. ‘Should we be more Catholic than the pope or more pious than the pope or more Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves?’” Musharraf said. **“Is this the right attitude or should there be some change in it? There should be national consensus on it.” **
Pakistan has no ties with Israel and its citizens are not allowed to travel to Israel.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
ChP: I was actually indirectly referring to the fact that many MNA's in the present government are hopping mad at why Shaukat Aziz was taken along to what was the most high profile trip in a Pakistani presidents recent history.
[/QUOTE]
Zakk,
In case you don't follow the trips taken by the President Musharraf, Mr. Aziz has always been in Mush's small delegation. Be it a visit to USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, France or the coming up trip to North African Countries at the end of month, July. {Just 5-6 high ranking officials. No Family Party}.
No the real reason is because the CE needs him for all the connections he has within the western world. He was and is an important man. So he has all the connections.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Obviously the fundos are like yourself who worship the ground amreeka walks on and anythign islamic is bad in your opinion and backwards. You don't have much to offer at all except being a slave nation which is not good for anyone muslim or not.
America does not do anything unless its intrests are met. With there masscre and bombings of Afghanistan done and continuing. What do you think of the muslims being killed in afghanistan is that acceptable in your opinion?
What has pakistan gained apart from losing several bases and airstrips, it security, its borders and now more dangerous than ever, it has more debt rescheduling which makes it worse off in the long term.
And yes its military and defence industry is a plus point how you can ridicule that i do not know!
CM I agree the FTA and these trade agreements are totally ridiculous they are 99% in favour of the G8 nations and in this case the Americans will definertly be the winners and pakistan will end up with the short straw once again. The rule of the game is protect your own industries so that they flourish not expose them and give the opportunity to a superior economy to dominate with its own products. China and India have been successful on many front by protecting there industries.
[/QUOTE]
AK munney, we aint discussing Islam here... We are discussing Musharraf's trip to the US... And in case you didnt know, I said its a good thing for Pakistan to get help from all developed countries... Now dont tell me its not ok to look for China for help, but not the US...
Economically speaking it isnt good for pakistan at all. We import more than we export and of course that causes an imbalance in the balance of payments. However we need to trade with them for the R&D and Technology diffusion. But i would personally make the EU our strongest trading partner esp after the 300 million GSP and current whip out of debt etc. Of course they are bound to be the next economic power. Forget the US. Their time is soon to be over.
There time is soon to be over?????
CM. Did you know that EU's combined economic output is less than that of California, and their GDP is roughly 1/20th of that of the US (despite a larger population)? When Europe starts producing Coke or Levis, let us know. Pakistan will be stupid to tilt towards EU, it's only hope is to rely on trade with the US and strengthen economic and political ties with it.
CM, read today's NYTimes, French are crying foul because the US marketers are not buying Bordeaux. What a lovely economic strength, relying on the US Winos to sustain and run their economy.
I expect better from you.
NYA did you know that the EU has the most output of FDI? There is more money there for Pakistan's use. Levis and coke? Come lets talk products with real value. BMW etc. Incorrect NYA simply because you cant have ties with the US. It is 100% domination. With the EU you get freedom and get to do what you want within reason. There is still a concept of soveriegnty.
Only the americans would let politics get in the way of economics. Sad isnt it?