Pregnant woman to be stoned in Nigeria

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

SS,

All I can suggest is that you read about Islam with a pure heart....you will find what you need....good or bad.

You are not being forced to be a muslim, you could carry out what is required of you in your parents eyes and be a non-beleiver in your heart....this is wrong.

If you disagree with many of the basic tennents spend time and effort to reconcile yourselve with them...if after this you still find no solice it is up to you. But to flail about on the net for answers may not be the right way to go.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Salaam.

22

[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
**not hearing anything about the males who GOT those women pregnant. Maybe God says that their 'lewdness' is justified, to satisfy their insatiable sexual appetite you know. Or maybe the women 'lewdly' showed him her ankle, to which he could not resist and was forced by an animal instinct to take her. Of course it isn't his fault, it was the woman who showed him her ankle! You knows what, I'm getting very dissilusioned with Islam, even more so than when I first got, for want of a beter word, confused by it.

**
[/quote]

I don't know why you choose to ignore some posts. If you go up and read, you will find that BOTH should be punished. PakiAbroad is discussing different aspect of the same issue here.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

23

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
** That is what I wish to know. How are the laws during Sharia (spelling?) determined? What about the man getting off free?**
[/quote]

I don't see the woman as pregnant first of all. secondly MAN shouldn't be let go freely. If there is un-balance in ANY society for any reason, its asking Allah for havoc/disaster. If the court somehow freed the man because of any reason than they have violated the law.

May Allah help us all, aameen.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

24

hey PAkiAbroad and Muzna, u have to follow hadith....
if u r muslims, HADITH means as much to u as QURAN....

a verse of the Quran
"and what the Prophet (Muhammad) gives u take it, and what he stops u from, abstain from it"

if u DEFY hadith or DENY its importance, u r NOT MUSLIMS....
as i said before, Allah says in the Quran:
"(O Prophet) tell (the believers) that if you love Allah, then follow me and Allah will love u and forgive ur sins"

u r doing KUFR if u say that hadith has no value....

25

Well said Armughal.

26

You are correct armughal

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

Quran says that some people would take hidayat from Quran and some people would take gumrahee (wrong directions) from it…

Now u can see people are going in the wrong direction by using the words of Quran.

27

Wait, wait! Can we take a few steps further back? Let's look at this together. This woman is being tried for having consenting sex and faces a death sentence! Isn't this beyond the acceptability level of ANY decent human being? Doesn't sound like she hurt anyone. Doesn't seem like she created any social problems. What kind of law is this? Sounds like a MEDIEVAL LAW from another time that ALL modern societies have left behind centuries ago, together with witchcraft and wizards.

Are you brave enough to question such things? Should we keep spending our energies debating whether she should be stoned to death or be given 100 lashes? Isn't the entire discussion completely ridiculous?

28

Thap:

Sarah Splendor:

100 lashes as prescribed by ALLAH. As Changez pointed out, I was being more pertinent to the thread. They get the same punishment.

armughal, oAsis,

when you guys quote or allude to the Quran, please remember to provide the surah and verse number. I’ll go on a limb here and assume you possess a copy of the Holy Qur’an, unless you’ve packed it in it’s juzdaan and set it up on a rahl and ardently read Hadith Books instead.

oAsis:

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

what a statement!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

so you think anyone who tries to understand and enforce the laws in the Quran by using the words of the Qur’an as described by Allah is going in the wrong direction?

It’s presumptuous of you to quickly brand me the ‘gumrah’ one… what if it’s the other way around?

Tell me my flaws in the translation, comprehension and analysis of the ayats I quoted as proof of my argument.

Please debate logically and do not steer off topic by getting emotional. Or do you guys naoozobillah don’t even consider the Qur’an ‘worthy’ of reading and understanding because you’d rather read Hadith?

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 17, 2001).]

29

Assalam o Alaikum!

Those who deny hadeeth as a source of Islamic Law are going against the dictates of the Qur'an and the clear statements of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). As evidence I submit the following ayaat and ahadeeth and shall ask them to explain how they can deny the hadeeth (sunnah) as an essential source.

  1. When the Prophet sent mu'adh b. jabal as judge to the Yemen, he was asked as to the sources on which he would rely in making decisions. In reply mu'adh referred first to the 'Book of Allah' and then to the 'Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah'.

  2. In another Hadith' the Prophet is reported to have said, 'I left two things among you. You shall not go astray so long as you hold on to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah (sunnati).

  3. "Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire." (al-Najm, 53:3)

  4. "And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, abstain from it." (al-Hashr, 59:7).

  5. "Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who are in charge of affairs among you. Should you happen to dispute over something, then refer it to God and to the Messenger" (al-Nisa', 4:58-59).

  6. "Whoever obeys the Messenger verily obeys God." (al-Nisa 4:80).

The Sunnah is the second primary source. It may consist of rules that merely confirm and reiterate the Qur'an. Or, it may consist of an explanation or clarification to the Qur'an. Or, it may consist of rulings on which th Qur'an is silent.

The stoning of an adulterer falls in the latter category, which also includes other rules, like prohibition to marry simultaneously maternal or paternal aunts of one's wife, the grandmother's entitlement to share in the inheritance.

There are instances recorded in the Sunnah of the Prophet, the Khulafa, and the Sahaba which confirm stoning. Do we now profess to know Islam more than them?

30

Coming back to my original questions:

How could the man get off scotfree and the woman not?

How come there exist differences of opinion whether it really is allowed to kill a pregnant woman for this kind of deed?

31

[quote]
2. In another Hadith' the Prophet is reported to have said, 'I left two things among you. You shall not go astray so long as you hold on to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah (sunnati).
[/quote]

That's not the ONLY version of what the Prophet has been 'alleged' as saying:

The problem starts right after the Last Sermon when people follow their hidden agendas and report incorrect versions.

Here is a sampling of some:

1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah (Muwatta, 46/3)

2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt, (Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.)

3) I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. (Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.}

You realise that the moment we start looking elsewhere, we are plagued with problems of inconsistency and new sects are born every minute based on every hadith.

I'll now explain the ayats you have quoted in support of following Hadith and letting it naoozobillah 'override' the commandments in Qur'an.

[quote]
"Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire." (al-Najm, 53:3)
[/quote]

Here's the context.

[an-Najm 53:2] You companion has neither erred, nor has he gone astray,

[an-Najm 53:3] Nor does he speak out of his own desire.

[an-Najm 53:4] It is nothing but pure revelation revealed by God.

[an-Najm 53:5] The Lord of the Mighty Powers has taught him,

Clear now that Allah is talking about an event and the 'revelation revealed' is the Holy Qur'an that was taught to the messenger by Allah.

[quote]
4. "And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, abstain from it." (al-Hashr, 59:7).
[/quote]

Here's the context:

Whatever ALLAH has given to HIS Messenger as spoils from the people of the towns, it is for ALLAH and for the Messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, in order that it may not circulate only among those of you who are rich. And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it. And fear ALLAH, surely, ALLAH is Severe in retribution. (59:7)

Clearly it describes the 'spoils of war'. And if we are to take this as a 'general' command then let's consider this:

O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (66:1)

Allah ALWAYS guided the Prophet and the Prophet couldn't issue commands on his own, but with Allah's permission in the Book.

[quote]
5. "Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who are in charge of affairs among you. Should you happen to dispute over something, then refer it to God and to the Messenger" (al-Nisa', 4:58-59)
[/quote]

It's only 4:59, 4:58 is different.

Here's what follows IMMEDIATELY after this

[al-Nisa 4:60]Hast thou not seen those who pretend that they believe in that which is revealed unto thee and that which was revealed before thee, how they would go for judgment (in their disputes) to false deities when they have been ordered to abjure them? Satan would mislead them far astray.

How clear can Allah get? Surely what was 'revealed' unto the Prophet was the Qur'an and before that to all the Prophets a Book by Allah. How can then people run to other Books for judgement?

Clearly the messenger follows no one by Allah and those who are in charge of affairs are supposed to obey nothing but what the messenger brought, which is Allahs commands in the Book.

[Yunus 10:36] Most of them follow not but conjecture. Assuredly conjecture can by no means take the place of truth. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.

[Yunus 10:37] And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind - *Therein is no doubt *- from the Lord of the Worlds.

[Yunus 10:38] Or say they: He hath invented it? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful

THERE IS NO DOUBT IN THE QUR'AN. We DO NOT NEED to follow conjecture. There is NO surah like the Qur'an.

[quote]
6. "Whoever obeys the Messenger verily obeys God." (al-Nisa 4:80)
[/quote]

Here's the full verse

[an-Nisa' 4:80] Whoever obeys the messenger is obeying GOD. As for those who turn away, we did not send you as their guardian.

Clear, that the messenger is NOT the guardian. By 'obeying the messenger' we will be 'obeying the message he brought from ALLAH' because he is not issuing SEPARATE commandments not found in the Book.

[quote]
The Sunnah ...Or, it may consist of an explanation or clarification to the Qur'an.
[/quote]

Brother, PLEASE do not be of those who doubt. The Qur'an is DETAILED AND FULLY EXPLAINED NO ONE but Allah can explain the Book.

[al-A`raf 7:52] For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

[Yunus 10:37]This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[al-An`am 6:114] Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, *explained in detail."* They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

[Yusuf 12:111]Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

[al-An`am 6:126]And this is the path of thy Lord leading straight to HIM. WE have, indeed, explained the revelations in detail for a people who would be admonished.

[quote]
it may consist of rulings on which th Qur'an is silent.
[/quote]

Brother PLEASE! Qur'an is COMPLETE. Allah left NOTHING out of the Book

[al-An`am 6:115]The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[al-An`am 6:38]There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. WE have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they all be gathered together.

[quote]
Do we now profess to know Islam more than them?
[/quote]

Do you believe people before us found the way unless Allah guided them? They were only humans.

[Yunus 10:35] Say, Is there any of your associated-gods who guides to the truth ?' Say,It is ALLAH alone Who guides to the truth. Is then HE Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not the way himself unless he be guided? What, then, is the matter with you ? How judge ye ?'

[al-An`am 6:19 Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

May Allah Helps us and guide us in the right path as detailed in The Book.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 17, 2001).]

32

You have not replied to the first hadeeth regaring question asked of muadh (radhi Allaho anho).

I have not said anywhere that the Sunnah overrules the Qur'an. That is your (mis)understanding. The Qur'an is the first source of Shariah. Sunnah is the second and it complements the Qur'an.

When you say the Qur'an is complete. Please tell me how you pray. Where does the Qur'an tell you how many times and how many raka'at you must perform and about the manner of praying.

Brother, read any book on Usul al-Fiqh to understand what the scho;ars have understood and written. Do not go by your own interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunnah. In order to interpret, you have to have excelent knowledge of Arabic and the sources of Islamic Law and Jurisprudence.

By the way, the responses you have given. Are they your own effort or are they from some web site?

33

Surah # 4 (An-Nissaa) Verse # 59:
O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination.

IF THIS DOESNT CLEAR DOUBTS, NOTHING WILL

34

[quote]
You have not replied to the first hadeeth regaring question asked of muadh (radhi Allaho anho).
[/quote]

I chose not to. I'll discuss Qur'anic verses only, as that IS the real discussion isn't it? That Qur'an is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED and we need to look at the Qur'an for JUDGEMENT or LAW and it's the means of Salvation.

[quote]
The Qur'an is the first source of Shariah. Sunnah is the second and it complements the Qur'an.
[/quote]

This is an assumption not proved by reading the Qur'an. To prove Sunnah is REQUIRED and without it the religion is naoozobillah INCOMPLETE you'd have to find convincing arguments within the Qur'an.

The Gospels as we know today were written by men as per their recollection of events. Each is labelled "Gospel according to..". Muslims DO NOT believe the message of these books to be entirely true.. as we all reject Jesus as a SON of God naoozobillah.

If we start believing books written 150 to 200 years AFTER the departure of prophets than by that token the Gospel becomes religious Sharia too? Because Allah has asked us to believe in all books given by Him.

[quote]
When you say the Qur'an is complete. Please tell me how you pray. Where does the Qur'an tell you how many times and how many raka'at you must perform and about the manner of praying.
[/quote]

There you go again alleging Qur'an is naoozobillah NOT complete, even after I've shown you verses where it says it's complete. Brother what else will convince you?? I've shown you Quranic verses. What else do you believe in?? Allah's word is not enough??

Where in Hadith does it tell you exactly HOW to pray, how many rakaats etc? It's people's compilation of how they saw the prophet praying. I never read the Hadith Books and I could offer prayers when I was in my teens. I'm very sure you could too. It was much later that you were introduced to the Books of Hadith.

I have covered the matter of Salat in another thread. Briefly, Salaat is nothing new, it was there since early prophets, it was 'farz' on ALL prophets and Allah only sent messages to 'revive' it. Salat and Zakaat both have been 'farz' on civilizations before.. as was fasting.

Did you know brother that Orthodox Jews have literature detailing how to pray and it's uncannily similar to how we pray today inclusive of vazoo and azaan??

This is the Religion of Abraham. If we are to start following 'Sunnah' of prophets who brought it, let's dig up books on the life of all prophets and start discussing that too and everyone will be in disagreement again, just like today.

Not because the Prophets did anything outside what Allah commanded them to do, but so many people observing and reporting increases the chances of errors especially when these accounts are compiled hundreds of years later under a highly questionable political climate to say the least.

The very basis of adding Sunnah as part of Sharia arises from different versions of the Last Sermon by the Prophet. Tell me brother, how do you counter the Shiite's who claim the Prophet said "I leave you with the Qur'an AND Ahl-e-Bayt"?? while Sunni's maintain that he said "I leave you with Qur'an and my Sunnah".

There is yet another reported version which says "I'm leaving with you the Qur'an so uphold it".

[list=1]
[li] I leave with you Quran and Sunnah (Muwatta, 46/3) [/li]
[li]I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt (Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319)[/li]
[li] I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. (Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.)[/li]
[/list=a]

Right there and then, we are faced with controversies and different accounts of the same sermon witnessed by thousands of people.

Isn't is safer to stick to the Qur'an as Allah guarantees it's sanctity?

(al-An`am 6:115)The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[quote]
Do not go by your own interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunnah. In order to interpret, you have to have excelent knowledge of Arabic and the sources of Islamic Law and Jurisprudence.
[/quote]

This is precisely what's wrong with our mindset. When Allah has repeatedly told us that he's made the Book simple to understand. True, most of us don't know Arabic, but most assuredly we have the wisdom given to us by Allah and the intellect to try and understand the true meaning of it and differentiate between erroneous interpretations which are opposed to the spirit of religion and humanity at times.

If we start taking every scholar's word for it, where is our effort to learn and understand our own religion? We end up apologetically trying to rationalize the verses on "beating women", "keeping slaves", "chopping hands", "treating women as inferior by requiring two of them as witnesses against one man" rather than embrace better intrepretations for it.

If we follow Hadith scholars, we end up defending stoning lewd people, killing apostates and infidels, and trying to defend that Islam does not allow pedophilic marriages!

If we stick to the Qur'an, the answers are clear and simple and everything adds up. Most assuredly people didn't report all truth when they alleged that the Prophet took an underaged wive. NOWHERE in the Qur'an we are told to marry underaged women and the Prophet NEVER went against the Qur'an. So where's the problem?? in reported accounts.

[quote]
By the way, the responses you have given. Are they your own effort or are they from some web site?
[/quote]

My own effort, no cut-n-pastes.. except of course the Quranic verse translations.

If you are not convinced, we agree to disagree. Just keep an open mind and I promise to do the same.

Allah Knows Best

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 18, 2001).]

35

I am extremely sorry for you. I believe Brother armughal is correct. If the ayat is not enough for you, nothing is. Going into the semantics to disprove what you have said is not worth my while. Lakum deenokum waleyadeen. And, Allah is the best Judge.