Predetermination or freewil.

Ibn_Sadique · June 11, 2004, 9:46am

I’ll accept that, but for what are you congratulating me for?

I gather that you are jumping to conclusions without really reading my posts.

Sorry you have erred here very grossly. Ash’ariyahs are very much part of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama’a and are not a sect within Islam. The following links and some extracts from them will refute what you have claimed.

Abul Hasan Ash’ari Abul Hasan Ash’ari is 'Ali ibn Isma’il ibn Ishaq, Abu al-Hasan al-Ash’ari, the Imam of Ahl al-Sunna in tenets of faith, born in Basra in 260/874. A descendant of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash’ari, he was a Shafi’i scholar and the founder of the school of tenets of faith that bears his name and reflects his powerful intellect and profound knowledge of the Holy Koran and hadith ………..…………………………………………
He authored nearly three hundred books and treatises on all aspects of the faith of Ahl al-Sunna, and died in Baghdad in 324/936.

You can check the following link as well: ASH'ARIYAH

**“ASH’ARIYAH. ** The theological doctrine of the Ash’ariyah, the followers of al-Ash’ari, is commonly regarded as the most important single school of systematic theology in orthodox Islam. The school and its members are commonly referred to in Arabic as alash’ariyah and its members often as al-asha’irah (the “Ash’aris”). Ash’ari masters during the tenth and eleventh centuries CE most commonly refer to themselves and the school as ahl al-haqq (“those who teach the true doctrine”) or ahl al-sunnah wa-al-jama ah (“the adherents of the sunnah and the consensus [of the Muslim community]”) and sometimes as ahl al-tahqiq (“those whose doctrine is conceptually clear and verified”).”

Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama’a take the Jabriyah (who believe that man has absolute no free will whatsoever) the Qadriyah (who believe that man has absolute free will) to be deviants in Belief.
Please refer to this thread “Aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jama’a - by Imam Tahawi” http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141171 and read the last paragraph of the first post. For your benefit I’ll paste it here for you.

“We ask Allah to make us firm in our belief and seal our lives with it and to protect us from variant ideas, scattering opinions and evil schools of view such as those of the Mushabbihah, the Mu’tazilah, the Jahmiyyah the Jabriyah, the Qadriyah and others like them who go against the Sunnah and Jama’ah and have allied themselves with error.”

While you still at this thread [http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141171 ] read the points 83 to 88. ( For your benefit I have pasted them below).

“83. The Garden and the Fire are created things that never come to an end and we believe that Allah created them before the rest of creation and then created people to inhabit each of them. Whoever He wills goes to the Garden out of His Bounty and whoever He wills goes to the Fire through His justice. Everybody acts in accordance with what is destined for him and goes towards what he has been created for.

Good and evil have both been decreed for people.
The capability in terms of Tawfiq (Divine Grace and Favour) which makes an action certain to occur cannot be ascribed to a created being. This capability is integral with action, whereas the capability of an action in terms of having the necessary health, and ability, being in a position to act and having the necessary means, exists in a person before the action. It is this type of capability which is the object of the dictates of ShariÕah. Allah the Exalted says: ‘Allah does not charge a person except according to his ability’. (al-Baqarah 2: 286)
People’s actions are created by Allah but earned by people.
Allah, the Exalted, has only charged people with what they are able to do and people are only capable to do what Allah has favoured them. This is the explanation of the phrase: ‘There is no power and no strength except by Allah.’ We add to this that there is no stratagem or way by which anyone can avoid or escape disobedience to Allah except with Allah’s help; nor does anyone have the strength to put obedience to Allah into practice and remain firm in it, except if Allah makes it possible for them to do so.
Everything happens according to Allah’s will, knowledge, predestination and decree. His will overpowers all other wills and His decree overpowers all stratagems. He does whatever He wills and He is never unjust. He is exalted in His purity above any evil or perdition and He is perfect far beyond any fault or flaw. ‘He will not be asked about what He does but they will he asked.’ (al-Anbiya’ 21: 23)”

I will quote the following ayah of Holy Quran again:

“To whomsoever among you who wills to go straight: But you cannot will unless (it be) that Allah Wills - the Cherisher of the Worlds.” [81:28-29]. “And Your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choices have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah! And far is He above the partners they ascribe to (Him)!” [28:68].

And the following from my previous post:

“Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama’ah, in perfect agreement with the Qur’an and Sunnah, believe that Allah in His infinite Mercy gave man a certain measure of free will. Man therefore freely makes his decisions and acts the way he wills. However, his choice and will submit to Allah’s Will. In other words, he cannot will anything, let alone accomplish it, until Allah Himself wills it.”*

You must believe that Allah’s (swt) Will is supreme and that no creation can will against what Allah (swt) Wills. This is a delicate philosophical point I hope that you get the gist of it.

For your benefit I am providing you with a few links which relate to the topic at hand.

DIVINE DESTINY AND HUMAN’S FREE WILL http://www.thewaytotruth.org/catindex3.html#divinedestiny

HOW CAN DIVINE DESTINY AND HUMAN FREE WILL BE RECONCILED? http://www.thewaytotruth.org/divinedestiny/howcanreconciled.html

I had read a very interesting article about Hazrat Ali (ra) quite some time ago and cannot remember the name of the book. I have tried to find the reference for it online but to no avail. Maybe your maraja can confirm it for us.

Once a person who was of a belief that man has complete free will over his actions, confronted Hazrat Ali (ra) to prove him wrong.

Hazrat Ali (ra) asked that man if he was able to raise his right leg and move it about as far as possible. The man immediately complied and raised his right leg up and started swinging it to limit of its range.

Hazrat Ali asked him to lift up his left leg while leaving his right leg still in the air.

The man protested that it was impossible to do so.

Then Hazrat Ali (ra) explained to the man that his ability to lift his right leg was his limited free will while his left leg over which he had no control now was the station in life that was predetermined for him.

I hope that after reading all this stuff you will consider Ash’ariyah to be part and parcel of Ahlul Sunnah and not another sect.

Do the congratulations you offered me earlier still stand?

Aren’t we discussing nearly the same thing?

inuit · June 14, 2004, 12:22am

^^
The Muslims differed with one another in matters of the Law (fiqh), following differing paths and dividing into various sects, such as Ja’fari, Zaydi, Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali, each of which has a fiqh of its own. Similarly, from the viewpoint of the doctrine, they divided into various schools, each with its own set of principal doctrines. The most important of these schools are: the Shi’ah, the Mu’tazilah, the 'Asha’irah, and the Murji’ah.

To be very brief Ash’ariyah is not only Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama’a. There are many sects in Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama’a. It is a complex collection of many religions and school of thoughts in Usool and Fiqh. Ullama in different times and regions belong to this greater collection of sects have many different views. To be very clear and straight forward this is not applied only Sunnies but also on Shia and I don’t feel any hesitation in saying this.

Don’t confuse things; be straight:

In my first post I wrote: Ash’arite support the concept of Predestination (jabr) where as Mu’tazilite represents freedom (tafwid).

Free will and freedom in Shi’ism occupy an intermediate position between the Ash’arite (absolute) predestination (jabr) and the Mu’tazilite doctrine of freedom (tafwid).

and Shia religion is in between these two; very simple – no confusion
Imams (A:) said: “la jabra wa la tafwida bal 'amrun bayna 'amrayn”:
Neither Jabr nor tafwid; but something intermediate between the two (extreme) alternatives.

In reply to my post you advocated the concept of Predestination (jabr) (Ash’arite’s concept) very clearly.

You pasted selected Aayat as TEXTUAL EVIDENCE from Quran and some Hadith in favor of the concept of predestination. Then you wrote Three EVIDENCE OF REASON. You wrote:

Predestination (jabr) and free will (ikhtiyar), is said to be one of the main issues which was discussed in the beginning of 'ilm al-kalam among Muslims. The second issue was of Divine Justice became current among Muslims during the first half of the second century of Hijrah. It is said the first formal centre of such discussions was the circle of al-Hasan al-Basri (d. 110/728-29). Among the Muslim personalities of the latter half of the first century, the names of Ma’bad al-Juhani (d. 80/ 699) and Ghaylan ibn Muslim al-Dimashqi (d. 105/723) have been mentioned, who adamantly defended the ideas of free will (ikhtiyar) and man’s freedom. There were others who opposed them and supported predestination (jabr).** The believers in free will were called “qadariyyah” and their opponents were known as “jabriyyah”. **

Gradually the points of difference between the two groups extended to a series of other issues in theology, physics, sociology and other problems relating to man and the Resurrection, of which the problem of jabr and ikhtiyar was only one. During this period, the “qadariyyah” came to be called “Mu’tazilah” and the “jabriyyah” became known as "Asha’irah ". The Orientalists and their followers insist on considering the beginnings of discursive discussions in the Islamic world from this point or its like.

The problem of determinism and free will (jabr wa ikhtiyar) is the same as the problem of predestination and Divine Providence qada’ wa qadar, the first formulation relates to man and his free will, while the second one relates to God. This problem also raises the issue of Divine Justice, because there is an explicit connection between determinism and injustice on the one hand, and free will and justice on the other.

The problem of justice raises the issue of the essential good and evil of actions, and the latter in its turn brings along with it the problem of the validity of reason and purely rational judgments. These problems together lead to the discussion of Divine wisdom (that is the notion that there is a judicious purpose and aim behind Divine Acts) [4], and thereby, gradually, to the debate about the unity of Divine Acts and the unity of the Attributes.

The difference in matters of kalam causes disunity in their Islamic outlook, and the disagreement in the matter of fiqh deprives them of the unity of action.

The Hanbalis are totally against kalam, Mu’tazilite or Ash’arite, not to speak of the Shi’ite kalam. In fact they are basically opposed to logic and philosophy. Ibn Taymiyyah, who was one of the eminent scholars of the Sunni world, gave a verdict declaring kalam and logic as ‘unlawful’. Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, another figure among the Ahl al-Hadith, has written a book called Sawn al-mantiq wa al-kalam 'an al-mantiq wa al-kalam (“Protecting speech and logic from [the evil of] 'ilm al-kalam and the science of logic”). Malik ibn Anas is another Sunni imam who considers any debate or inquiry about doctrinal matters to be unlawful.

It is very good that we agreed on same point as you mentioned;

**But in addition to this there should be no doubt about it that "Asha’irah” were the supporters of predestination (jabr). It is good enough that Sunnies in this era are not agreeing with them and their thoughts. Many of the modern Sunnis even don’t know the name of this School of thought in Kalam.

Those whoever call themselves Sunni and believe in Man’s free Will are not Ashritie - Truth is revealed to them after a long discussions with shias. Ashritie, Mutazilite and shia were in this discussion since long. But Mutazilite are dead now.**

For more about Ilam ul Kalam read the following:

An Introduction to 'Ilm al-Kalam

sweetpie · June 14, 2004, 1:37am

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Every action and it’s reaction is pre-determined by God; this logic appears crystal-clear in hindsight. God has given us intelligence and a way to reason out our paths freely yet He is with us every step of the way knowing full well what is to come. One does not exclude the other…pre-determination and free will are not mutually exclusive whatsoever in Islam. I think this is the one point that most people become flustered over.

ak47 · June 14, 2004, 2:44am

Assalam alaikam

Man lives in 2 spheres one is the sphere he controls and the other he has no control over.

the 1st sphere you can choose for example there is glass of water and glass of alcohol in front of you allah(swt) has given you the free will to choose to drink either the water or the alcohol.

the 2nd sphere you cannot control for example if you walking the street and a bus hits you or rocks falls on your head from above you had no choice in that matter and it was your fate.

You are punished or rewarded for all actions you commit in 1st sphere because you have the control here and make the choice.

Ibn_Sadique · June 15, 2004, 12:22am

inuit Salaams

Let me correct you here. There are only two sects in Islam; Shia and Sunni. “Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali” are not sects but Schools of thought within Sunnis!

Let me correct you here again. Ash’ariyyah is not a sect within Sunni or even a sub-sect, but is one of 3 **theological Doctrines ** within Sunnis. These **theological Doctrines ** are not the same as Schools of Thoughts.

Sorry, I think I should be saying that to you! And get your facts right.

Sorry to say that you are wrong again. I don’t think you have been reading my posts or the links that I had given you; otherwise you would not have made the above statement.

Ash’ariyyah ** DO NOT HOLD THE VIEW THE VIEW OF JABRIYYAH! **

They do not hold Allah (swt) responsible for man’s actions but hold the view that man’s actions cannot be independent of Allah’s Will.

To them ALLAH’S (swt) WILL ALWAYS BE SUPREME.

So this means the mixture of the both Predetermination and Absolute Free Will. So this formula has some Predestination (Jabr) and Free will (Tafwid).

I am quoting myself again from my previous post:

The above is not the Beliefs of Jabriyyah (those who believe that everything is pre-ordained for man and that man’s has already been charted by Allah (swt).
The above statement states and confirms the Allah (swt) is the Supreme Authority and that His Will supercedes all wills and that nothing happens without His Will. That in no way implies that Allah (swt) has forced man to commit any particular action.
The above statement states that had Allah (swt) Willed that man should not commit the action that the man was willing to commit, Allah’s (swt) Will will prevail.
Do you agree to that? Or do you think that man’s actions are independent of Allah’s will?

**Sorry to disappoint you again. Ash’ariyyah are ‘alive and kicking’.
**

“The majority of those who follow the Malikite jurisprudential madhhab, which is comprised of 13% of worldwide Sunni Muslims, and some 75% of those who follow the Shafi’ite jurisprudential madhhab, which constitutes some 33% of worldwide Sunni M uslims, and a very small proportion of those who follow the Hanafite and Hanbalite jurisprudential madhhabs follow the Ash’arite school of theology.”

Above taken from: http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/sunni/ash.html

Self- promotion?

Do you know who ‘killed’ the Mu’tazilah? (Those who believe in complete Free will for man.)

You are in for a very big shock. Mu’tazilah where defeated in a great debate by none other than ** Abu al-Hasan Al Ash’ari - The founder of Ash’ariyyah Aqeedah.**

I am pasting the “great debate” for your benefit below:

'Ali ibn Isma’il al Ash’ari (Abu al-Hasan Al Ash’ari ) (258-322/873-935) started his career as a member of the Mu’tazilah and as student of Abu 'Ali al Jubba’i of the Basrah branch. At the age of forty, he abandoned the Mu’tazilah and countered its views, preaching against it in the mosque of Basrah. His views gained popularity when Nizam al Mulk opened the Nizamiyyah school in Baghdad with branches in Naysabur, Balkh, Herat, Isfahan, Marw, Basrah, and Mawsil, and commissioned teachers to teach the views of al Ash’ari. Since then, al Ash’ariyyah the view of the majority of Muslims in most of the philosophical-theological matters affecting Islam.

Tradition tells us that al Ash’ari one day confronted his teacher al Jubba’i with the following problem:

*Three brothers, one evil, one righteous, and one a minor, died. What was the fate of each of them? Al Jubba’i answered that the righteous was in Paradise; the evil in Hell; and the third belonged to the vague class of “People of Peace.” Al Ash’ari asked: If the minor asked for permission to visit his brother in Paradise, would it be granted? Al Jubba’i’s answer, based on the Mu’tazilah doctrine of justice, was, No, because Paradise can be earned only with good deeds. Al Ash’ari rejoined: But what if the minor claimed: Had I been allowed to live, I would have earned it. Basing his stance on the Mu’tazilah principle of divine omni-goodness, al Jubba’i answered that the boy would be told that it was better for him to have died early. Al Ash’ari then drove to his conclusion: But if the evil brother were then to ask God: You have known the good of the minor and decided to terminate his life in order to prevent him from doing evil and ruining himself. You knew my future as well. Why then did you do him the favor and not me? *

Al Jubba’i was confuted and al Ash’ari made his exit from the Mu’tazilah ranks.

http://www.masnet.org/history.asp?id=832