Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
I think you don't know MQM-PPP (or even MQM - Other party) relationship. Its combination of 'Sheer o Shakkar - Milk & sugar ' while looting and 'oil and water' at the time of accountability.
How is this observation of yours in anyway related to PPP's massive borrowing, which is the current topic at this moment?!
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
Its relevant bcoz every party who made alliance (Sheer o Shakkar) with PPP to be in Government is also accountable for deeds of PPP. If MQM didn't agree to these acts of PPP Govt, it should have left the government at an early stage. But thats not the case, as we all know.
Even after leaving the government MQM has not raised voice against this issue (bcoz it will also call for their accountability) and this friendly opposition can be compared with Oil-Water relationship.
Re: PPP government’s crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
You are either naive or just pretending to be one. Every party is accountable for its own deeds. And you could have blamed MQM if it had finance ministry or if it was part of financial decision making in any other way.
As far as this recent problem, MQM has been demanding imposition of agriculture tax since long, but PPP wadera and jageerdar are not willing to work on it. Increasing tax net will definitely bring more revenue for government and reduce the reason for borrowing from central bank.
Broadening of tax net has also been a demand of various SBP governors.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/05-Jul-2011/SBP-asks-govt-to-contain-borrowing
KARACHI - The State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) has stated that the size of the fiscal deficit cannot be reduced unless the government controls excessive borrowing from the central bank, along with fully implementing fiscal reforms, according to State Bank’s Third Quarterly Report on the State of Pakistan’s Economy for FY11 released Monday. “Desirable revenue generating measures - broadening of the tax base, improving documentation of the economic system, gradual elimination of un-targeted subsidies and curtailment of quasi-fiscal operations are necessary to contain the fiscal deficit to below 4.5 per cent of GDP in FY12”, said the report.
MQM did not support last budget presented by PPP:
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
You are either naive or just pretending to be one. Every party is accountable for its own deeds.
I think you don't know or don't want to accept that political parties are accountable to general public for any act of parliament whether they are in Govt or in opposition. If it is not so, there is no need for politicians to sit in assemblies for nothing and agree every act of the Parliament except those which affects their own agenda.
If MQM is that much concerned for Agri tax, it should not have made coalition with PPP's jageerdaars, who are not ready to levy such tax. Mere giving statements for or against an issue does not absolve any party from its responsibilities to general public at large.
In fact, every party here wants to be in power at any cost for their own benefit without addressing the public issues properly.
Re: PPP government’s crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
What about preceding three years’ budgets. Were they public friendly in MQM’s eyes. If not, why they didn’t agitate and leave government for the benefit of Public. They were actually in good position to make govt accept their recommendation bcoz at that time PML (Q) had not allied to PPP and there were no expectation for such alliance. Why MQM took U-Turn in 4th election by giving general statement that its not public friendly. Were their leaders doing some diplomas in Budgeting in first three years to understand what is public friendly and what is not.
Re: PPP government’s crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
Avoid personal attack. You are the most ignorant on this bulletin board. Why don’t you talk about budget 2011-2012 passed recently rather than discussing drama by you and by your mqm stupid leader on past year budget? But you guys are experts in lies, drama baazi and in befooling the public. Only Marvi Memon seemed to oppose the budget, I don’t see any MQM’s oppostion there. If you don’t know read as follows:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/23/house-passes-budget-party-feud-antics-vitiate-na-session.html
House passes budget: Party feud, antics vitiate NA session
ISLAMABAD: The National Assembly passed the new Rs2.76 trillion federal budget on Wednesday amid some theatrics and new tensions between the two main political parties ahead of elections in Azad Kashmir where they are confronting each other.
A high drama marked the start of the day’s sitting when PML-Q’s minister of state for interfaith harmony and minorities affairs, Akram Masih Gill, led a protest ‘dharna’, or sit-in, at the steps of the speaker’s dais against the devolution of his ministry to
provinces under the Eighteenth Amendment, provoking a sack warning from Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.
**And then, immediately after the house passed the Finance Bill, which will give effect to the budget for fiscal 2011-2012 from July 1 after rejecting several amendments from the opposition PML-N, another PML-Q member, Marvi Memon, announced her resignation as a member of the house after virtually disqualifying herself by voting against the money bill in defiance of
her party’s directive to support it.
**The member seemed to have decided her fate on the day Finance Minister Abdul Hafeez Sheikh presented the budget to the house on June 3 when she joined a noisy PML-N rumpus during the minister’s speech after tearing up some budget documents in front of the prime minister.
When other members of her party, like the rest of the coalition partners, said “ayes” for the finance bill, she repeatedly shouted “no, no”, making herself liable to disqualification for violating a constitutional obligation for members of a political party to follow the party directive in voting on a money bill, as also in a vote of confidence for the prime minister.
Tensions mounted after PML-N member Khwaja Saad Rafiq interrupted PPP chief whip Khurshid Ahmed Shah’s reply to a long statement read out by one-time loyalist of former military president Pervez Musharraf to denounce her party’s last month’s decision to join the PPP-led coalition and the government’s performance over the past more than three years of its existence.
A stinging reprimand from Speaker Fehmida Mirza silenced Mr Rafiq until Mr Shah made his reply, accusing Ms Memon of following double standards in view of her own and her father and former information minister Nisar Memon’s association with a dictator and PML-Q parliamentary leader and housing and works minister, Faisal Saleh Hayat, also spoke of persistent violation of party discipline by the departing member after being elected to a special women’s seat from Punjab although she belonged to Sindh province.
But then Mr Rafiq, besides objecting to Mr Shah’s right to respond to Ms Memon, criticised Asif Ali Zardari for what he saw as indecent language used by the president about PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif in a speech on Tuesday night.
Mr Rafiq’s outburst and protests from the treasury benches seemed to reflect the mood of rival campaigns for the June 26 elections for a new Legislative Assembly in Azad Kashmir, where Mr Sharif has been criticising the president and the government, accusing them of corruption, in recent speeches to public rallies in support for his party’s candidates.
In an apparent response to those speeches, President Zardari referred to the PML-N leader as “Maulvi Nawaz Sharif” in a speech at Naudero on Tuesday night marking the 58th birth anniversary of his assassinated wife and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto and accused him of seeking to divide the army and pitting the government against the military.
Mr Gill’s obviously irresponsible role in leading the sit-in by four lawmakers from non-Muslim minority communities — three from PML-Q and one from PML-N — apparently angered the prime minister who said a “minister should behave like a minister” and warned him that he could remove the minister of state from his job unless he withdrew from the protest.
But Mr Gill, who had come to the house for his dramatic show dressed in a black western suit, would not budge, until two other ministers of state of his party, Sardar Bahadur Ahmed Khan Sihar (defence production) and Sardar Shahjehan Yousaf (health), escorted him to his desk with some physical effort while the house speaker too denounced the erring member’s act as unworthy of a cabinet member.
It appeared the PPP and the PML-Q discussed the episode afterwards as PML-Q’s Senior Minister Chaudhry Pervez Elahi, who came to the house much later, was seen having a chat with Mr Gill, possibly for a reprimand, and later had a word with the prime minister, who was seen pointing to the place where the ‘dharna’ was staged.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/17/after-turmoil-budget-debate-ends-calmly.html
**After turmoil, budget debate ends calmly
MQM`s Sajid Ahmed called for use of railways in Afghan transit trade to help make it profitable, improving cotton varieties and value-addition, construction of small dams to compensate for shelving the Kalabagh dam project, more attention on technical education, making loss-making corporations efficient and tax concessions for machinery.**
(That is only the mqm contribution to 2011-2012 budget debate :))
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
If MQM is that much concerned for Agri tax, it should not have made coalition with PPP's jageerdaars, who are not ready to levy such tax. Mere giving statements for or against an issue does not absolve any party from its responsibilities to general public at large.
Jageerdar are present in every party.
Let's assume for a moment that MQM only gives statements against agriculture tax. What other parties do you think even give statements against it? What's preposterous is MQM haters like you who would condemn MQM even when it at least raises this issue about tax on waderas, but have nothing to say about the PPP-wadera-jageerdar coalition which not only didn't impose this tax but also is throwing Pakistan down the abyss.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
What about preceding three years' budgets. Were they public friendly in MQM's eyes. If not, why they didn't agitate and leave government for the benefit of Public. They were actually in good position to make govt accept their recommendation bcoz at that time PML (Q) had not allied to PPP and there were no expectation for such alliance. Why MQM took U-Turn in 4th election by giving general statement that its not public friendly. Were their leaders doing some diplomas in Budgeting in first three years to understand what is public friendly and what is not.
I don't think MQM ever said that any budget from PPP were public friendly. In no budget was MQM a part of financial decision making. Even though MQM consists of educated people, unlike Bijaranis and Raisanis of medieval PPP.
Re: PPP government’s crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
You ask me to avoid personal attack but then in the very next statement you do the very same thing to me. Do you see the irony?
What I said was due to a very “interesting” comment you made about MQM being responsible for all the incompetencies of this agri-government just because it is one part of a broader coalition. That comment from you was pretty much laughable, hence my observation about your age.
What “drama” are you talking about? Didn’t you see the chart I posted in the first posts of this topic where it shows crazy borrowings from this government? Are you calling them a drama?
Just see that within a year 3 governors of state bank have been replaced. You call it drama from MQM?
Also see that government has replaced the financial team multiple time for one reason or another. You call it drama from MQM?
MQM made proposals even for this budget of 2011-12. But once again PPP agri-government did not listen to it.
MQM has offered proposals to the government for new budget.
Deputy Convener Farooq Sattar said that if government can up to Rs1200 bilion and, Pakistan didn’t need not to seek IMF’s help.
While speaking at Khursheed Begum Memorial he said that MQM’s proposals on budget has five parts.
He was of the view that his party had offered such a dignified and pragmatic project which may help eradicate poverty and unemployment, provide academic and health facilities, add industrial and agricultural production, proving solution of all the problems faced by the nation.
He contended that government should focus its attention on the crisis of energy, decrease in mark-up while reviewing monetary policy.
He was of the opinion that prices of petroleum and electricity should be maintained while keeping in view the masses’ economic condition.
He informed that MQM had suggested about the establishment of an impartial commission in order probe into loans taken on political basis.
He emphasized that tax should be imposed on all taxable properties. This may add to Rs200 billion tax, he maintained.
Haider Abbas Rizvi on budget 2011-12 and MQM’s suggestions:
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
You did not reply my post and keep on posting nonsense. Are you discussing 2011-2012 buget or 2010-2011 the last year budget? You posted your cartoon leader discussing on youtube the last year's budget. Another cartoon charachter on youtube you have posted is discussing before approval of 2011-2012 budget. I provided you the link where current year budget was approved on June 23, 2011, approved by majority without any walkout or protest on this budget by mqm. I have also quoted what mqm actually contributed to debate before approval. Nothing is mentioned in the assembly by mqm what your cartoons farting on youtube. Keep on doing drama baazi no one is going to believe your lies.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
Another cartoon charachter on youtube you have posted is discussing before approval of 2011-2012 budget.
The best you can call the MQM people is 'cartoon', never mind the medieval backward PPP feudals. You are calling them 'cartoon' only due to your hatred. But the fact is that all they said made absolute sense.
Anyway, what I posted was about MQM's suggestions for this year's budgets, and by that time the government had already proposed the budget. The matters were almost settled.
MQM had given a set of proposals and suggestions for this budget. Some of these suggestions were accepted and some were rejected. MQM helped pass this budget because the government did listen to some of its proposals.
The proposals which government agreed to were like: annihilation of RGST, 15% increase in salaries and minimum Rs. 10,000 salary of private sector employees.
But not all of proposals were accepted. For example, development of tax net through imposition of tax on Afghan transit trade and agricultural tax, reduce markup rate, etc.
The proposal which were not accepted directly affect the amount of money government end up borrowing, which is what this topic is about.
Re: PPP government’s crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
The government is SO much desperate that it is trying to hide its shameful face by fudging numbers and pressuring officials to lie about tax collection. But its incompetency is fully exposed now:
July 27, 2011
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MG27Df03.html
KARACHI - An admission that Pakistan’s tax receipts fell well short of their target in the financial year that ended in June, after earlier boasts that they had beaten the target, is increasing concern that the country will fail to secure release of outstanding International Monetary Fund (IMF) loans.
Tax collection fell short of target by 38 billion rupees (US$440 million), the government said last week, **contrary to a June 30 Federal Board of Revenue (FBR) claim that it had exceeded the target by 2.46 billion rupees.
The tax-to-gross domestic product (GDP) ratio for the previous fiscal year was 8.6%, the lowest in two decades.
**Central bank governor Shahid Kardar resigned on July 14 **because he was being pressurized into agreeing to reconcile revenue collection “exceeding the target” **by affirming receipts in June from the National Bank of Pakistan and some other enterprises in July, local media reported.
Chief economist Jaffer Qamar, who headed the Planning Commission, resigned a week later. **Both men were reported at the time to have quit because of concerns over maintaining independence from the government. **Both had been less than a year in their posts.
For the fiscal year that started this month, the revenue collection target has been set at 1,952 billion rupees and the tax-to-GDP ratio target at 9.6%, still one of the world’s lowest.
Achieving those targets will now be more difficult “as the base has been reduced by 38 billion rupees,” the Express Tribune reported former finance minister Hafiz Pasha as saying.
The government may have to continue relying on domestic borrowing to meet the fiscal deficit, which will further drive up inflation that is already at around 15%.
With inflation forecast to stay in double digits in fiscal 2012, “it will be the first time in the country’s history that we will observe double digit inflation for five years straight,” Topline Securities said in a report. Average yearly inflation over the past four years stood at 14.6% against an average GDP growth rate of only 2.9%.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
I think you don't know MQM-PPP (or even MQM - Other party) relationship. Its combination of 'Sheer o Shakkar - Milk & sugar ' while looting and 'oil and water' at the time of accountability.
You are quite right, Not only PPP and MQM all are same.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
Jageerdar are present in every party. Let's assume for a moment that MQM only gives statements against agriculture tax. What other parties do you think even give statements against it? What's preposterous is MQM haters like you who would condemn MQM even when it at least raises this issue about tax on waderas, but have nothing to say about the PPP-wadera-jageerdar coalition which not only didn't impose this tax but also is throwing Pakistan down the abyss.
I don't support PPP. Yes, they have corrupt, uneducated leaders who don't want to levy taxes on Jageerdars and continuously shifting burden to common men, but then MQM leaders are very naive if they think Government had not implemented RGST on their suggestion (as the banners posted by MQM in all the markets of Karachi 6 months back suggest). The very clauses of RGST have been incorporated in budget 2011-2012 by withdrawing exemptions and removing zero rating facilities for export related sectors and therefore RGST has now been implemented and there was no agitation / walk out by MQM in budget sections. This proves that either MQM leadership don't understand finances / tax system or they don't have will to talk about public issues. Had they gone through the Finance Bill 2011-2012 properly, they should have seen the similar clauses of RGST Bill in the Finance Bill.
I again say mere statements won't resolve the issues our public is facing. Saying Jageerdars 'bura bhalla' at one end and agreeing (not opposing) to their policies on other hand is hypocrisy.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
I don't think MQM ever said that any budget from PPP were public friendly. In no budget was MQM a part of financial decision making.* Even though MQM consists of educated people, unlike Bijaranis and Raisanis of medieval PPP***.
Read my post # 34 above for implementation of RGST clauses through Finance Bill and MQM's silent approval without any agitation / walk out during budget discussion and approval sessions. What is the use of MQM's educated leadership, when PPP implemented RGST clauses in their presence. MQM couldn't raise the voice against the matter for which they had taken credit 6 months back and congratulated the traders that they played the role of savior for them by not getting RGST implemented.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
The very clauses of RGST have been incorporated in budget 2011-2012 by withdrawing exemptions and removing zero rating facilities for export related sectors and therefore RGST has now been implemented and there was no agitation / walk out by MQM in budget sections.
How come withdrawing zero rating facility to some export sectors equivalent to implementation of RGST?
RGST is VAT renamed. What has been restored on those export sectors is general sales tax or GST.
[quote]
I again say mere statements won't resolve the issues our public is facing. Saying Jageerdars 'bura bhalla' at one end and agreeing (not opposing) to their policies on other hand is hypocrisy.
[/quote]
MQM has mere 25 seats in national assembly. All other characters there are primarily jageerdar, no matter what party they are from.
Do you really expect MQM to effectively confront the whole national assembly with its few members? That would effectively mean political isolation.
What it can do is to continue to raise this issue, and try to create consensus regarding agriculture tax.
Before MQM nobody even bothered to think about implementing tax on agri income.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
This is the bottomline of discussion. Please don't whine as mqm is very much part of your so called medieval setup.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
Really? It's that simple. eh?
To you, the only way to show disapproval for MQM is to do political suicide.
In real world things don't work this way. MQM appreciated last budget because several of its suggestions were incorporated in it. This showed that MQM does not just criticize but actually provides solutions. This is why MQM supported its passing.
But that does not mean that MQM supported all proposals of this budget. Many of its important suggestions were not incorporated, and these suggestions had DIRECT impact on the borrowing spree which government is currently indulged in, and which is what the topic we are discussing.
So MQM is trying to change this medieval setup of feudals through its contributions. But why would these agri-politicians from ALL parties, esp PPP, agree to pay taxes and give up their free ride?
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
How come withdrawing zero rating facility to some export sectors equivalent to implementation of RGST? RGST is VAT renamed. What has been restored on those export sectors is general sales tax or GST.
MQM has mere 25 seats in national assembly. All other characters there are primarily jageerdar, no matter what party they are from. Do you really expect MQM to effectively confront the whole national assembly with its few members? That would effectively mean political isolation. What it can do is to continue to raise this issue, and try to create consensus regarding agriculture tax.
Before MQM nobody even bothered to think about implementing tax on agri income.
VAT / RGST are just names. The intention for introducing RGST was to withdraw exemptions available to various industries for various products. It was mainly opposed due to expected increase in inflation. Proposed RGST contained withdrawal of exemption and removing zero rating facilities.
Now, if you look at budget 2011-2012 documents, you will see withdrawals of exemption of Sales Tax on around 100 items (including surgical items, bricks, ambulances, fire fighting vehicles, CNG buses, various machinery and equipment, Computer software and spare of parts of various industries). Moreover, through Sindh Sales Tax Act, various exempted services have now been exposed to Sales Tax that including (logistics services alongwith warehousing services), which will lead to increase in transportation costs and therefore inflation in almost all items.
If MQM can't take stand against these issues just for the fear of isolation, then it is no more different than other feudal / blood sucking parties.
Re: PPP government's crazy borrowing is similar to current US debt ceiling crisis
VAT / RGST are just names. The intention for introducing RGST was to withdraw exemptions available to various industries for various products.
First you tell us what VAT means, and then we will see if it is implemented or not.
Ok, I'll explain it anyway. But do tell us what you think VAT is.
"RGST" and "exemption of some products from GST" are two independent concepts. You are mixing the two.
RGST is not only name but actually possess a clear definition which everyone in the world understand. The definition says that it is VAT. And that is what PPP government was planning to implement across the board except some food items. MQM stopped it.
On the other hand, if the government wants to withdraw exemption from various products then it does not necessarily need to introduce RGST. It can do it with GST. And it is not the first time the government changed products requiring or not requiring GST. It happens all the time.
[quote]
If MQM can't take stand against these issues just for the fear of isolation, then it is no more different than other feudal / blood sucking parties.
[/quote]
But MQM did stop RGST. This is to MQM's credit.
Agri-tax is another discussion. And like I said, MQM's 25 members can not make the whole parliament made up of jageerdars present in all parties to accept its implementation. If MQM threatens to quit unless agri tax is implemented then that will be the end of MQM's political life.
Obviously that is what MQM haters like you want. You won't be satisfied unless you see MQM squashed under a truck.
However, I did hear one PTI member saying that PTI also wants agri tax implemented. That is a good news. So in future if PTI does win some seats then the voice of MQM against agri tax will strengthen.
