Pope's aide is a terrorist

:mad: How dare he state this :nook: Freaking Saddam apologist, he should have remembered Halabja. Anyone who states anything remotely similar to this must be a terrorist and must secretly harbour a crush on Sad-damn :nook:

On my less-sarcastic note, by the way, the point of this thread is NOT to have pity for Saddam Hussein. Let’s remember that most of our discussions in this Forum should revolve around what is best for the people of Iraq, especially the future generations of innocent children to come. With him out of the picture, let’s not reduce ourselves to a delusion that our work has finished. It has just begun. It was, and remains, extremely important to have him arrested and to hold him (and other parties) accountable for ALL of the human rights violations that occurred, and are occurring, in Iraq. For too long, this one man has personified an entire society. Let’s remember there are 22 million individuals in that country whose lives depend upon the day-to-day mundane issues of filling up their cars with gas, putting bread on the table for their kids, and finding decent employment. So yeah he’s gone, but this isn’t a time to party about it. He should face victims’ justice, not victors’ retribution - for the future domestic, political and legal stability of Iraq, i think that is extremely important.

*(I feel sorry for Saddam, says Pope's aide | World news | The Guardian), John Hooper
The Guardian, 17 December 2003

In a move that seems certain to outrage the US administration, one of the Pope’s most senior officials yesterday expressed “pity” and “compassion” for Saddam Hussein, and warned that his capture might do more harm than good.

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the pontifical council for justice and peace and the equivalent of a minister in the Catholic church’s “government”, was speaking at the presentation in Rome of a message from the Pope in which, among other things, he included a coded reminder to the world that the invasion of Iraq had been carried out without UN backing.

Cardinal Martino, whose department deals with a wide range of international issues, said he was pleased with the capture of Saddam and hoped it would bring peace and democracy. But he added: “I felt pity to see this man destroyed, [the military] looking at his teeth as if he were a cow. They could have spared us these pictures … Seeing him like this, a man in his tragedy, despite all the heavy blame he bears, I had a sense of compassion for him.”

The Pope was fiercely critical of the Iraq war, which he repeatedly described as a “defeat for humanity”.

The cardinal described the capture of the former dictator as a “watershed”, but hoped “this will not have worse … consequences”. He said it was “illusory to hope that this will repair the dramas and the damage of the defeat for humanity that a war always brings about”.

A similar note was sounded in the Pope’s own message, prepared for the World Day of Peace which the Vatican celebrates on January 1. The pontiff did not allude directly to the US, but in a clear allusion to its side-stepping of the UN, he said: “Peace and international law are closely linked to each other: law favours peace.”

His message also appeared to echo the Vatican’s disquiet over the way that Washington is conducting its “war on terror”. Acknowledging that international law, as presently framed, was unable to cope properly with the phenomenon of terrorism, the Pope called for reforms to equip the world with “effective means for the prevention, monitoring and suppression of crime”.

But he pointedly remarked that “democratic governments know well that the use of force against terrorists cannot justify a renunciation of the principles of the rule of law.”

He added that the war on terrorism required more than just repression and retaliation. The Pope said those who wanted to put a stop to it had to do so “by eliminating the underlying causes” and “insisting on an education inspired by respect for human life”.*

What is wrong with that? The Pope and his entrouage stand for peace and the betterment of humanity. After all Christainity teaches to turn the other cheek and be the better person. Saddam has done a lot of wrong. But he is still human. He is still a man. No matter what he deserves pity and maybe compassion. I actually feel happy that men like these still exist. It shows hatred and angry dont have to control our society and people in general.

Saddam deserves to die. I hope he does. But i admire the man for saying something that takes alot more strenght and courage than to let the fires of vengance burn in their heart.

This is really getting scary. CM and I are becoming like philosophical brothers or something on a lot of issues. :eek:

When they are not too busy covering up for priests molesting little boys, the job of Cardinals and other holy people is to express pity and compassion for human kind. Men like these play an important role in society even if it is nothing more than to represent an ideal that we should strive to attain.

He’d probably be better served talking to the Iraqis and trying to convince them not to gut Saddam and hang him from a meathook in a public square than to mourn the public display of US torture-by-tongue- depressor though.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by myvoice: *
**When they are not too busy covering up for priests molesting little boys....
*
[/QUOTE]

i KNEW that was coming up. i just knew someone or the other would bring that up.

CM, Whether or not he deserves to die - that is not a decision for me to make. That is not a decision for you to make. That's not a decision for my parents or for anyone else so wholly unconnected with Iraq. It's a decision for an independent tribunal to decide. Anything less, is another human rights violation for the people of Iraq. That's what i am trying to get at.

It's very easy for all us keyboard pundits to pass judgements about this issue. When FW de Klerk was taking steps towards the official end of apartheid, a lot of people were in favour of seeing the parties responsible for some of the most heinous acts of apartheid, be executed. Can you just imagine what condition South Africa would be in today had victors' retribution superceded victims' justice ? We owe it to the people of Iraq, for their childrens' stability and prospects for a better future, that an independent tribunal - that adheres to international laws - be allowed to determine the fate of this man AND all those responsible for committing human rights violations against that society.

My two cents.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
i KNEW that was coming up. i just knew someone or the other would bring that up.
[/QUOTE]

Well Nadia. People like to quote some guy like the Pope's aide and hold that person out as some guy whose opinion should be respected more than others because of his profession/station in life. Pope, Cardinal, Priest, Imam, Ayatollah, Rabbi: they are all still just men. And they are capable of and do some of the most horrible things that humans can do to another just like any other men can and do. They can't even live up to the ideals that they profess. The ideals are great and, as I said above, it's nice that there are people out there whose function it is to remind us of these ideals. But don't post something from one of these guys and expect the reaction to be "so it is said and so it must be. He is holy and I am not."

Have your pity and compassion but let the Iraqi people decide what to do with Saddam. That is the place of the crime. They are his victims. I'm sure you don't think the US would be a proper judge as to whether the tribunal that will try him is an "independent tribunal." Well, neither is Kofi Anan, Chirac, Putin or anyone else. The South Africans decided for themselves how to mete out justice and they did a pretty good job. The Iraqis ought to have the same right.

I just read the first para of this thread! Calm down! Youre taking this capture way too emotionally... :(

Myvoice it only happens when you take those rose tinted glasses off.

Edit: Nadia:

Its not a decision for me or you to make. Well sorry for experssing my opnion. I will remember not to do so again. For gods sake everybody judges people and actions. Why should we discuss politics if we arent involved? Why did you care so much for the plight of iraqis under sanctions since you arent directly affected. There is no point to this discussion if you want refrain from arm chair antics.

This independent tribunal shall have people from iraq? Idoubt it. They will be lawyers and judges that will have nothing to do with iraq. How is the killing of a despotic leader a human rights violation or a normal iraqi. Honestly you make less sense in this thread than you have ever in the past 3 years on gupshup.

I still say in South Africa all those racists should have been shot. A double tap to the head. But then again the topic is this clergy man who is doing what is best humanity. I applaud his strenght and courage to say this esp. when everybody knows what Saddam has done.

Religious figures are supposed to represent the best in our society. Peace, forgiveness etc. This man is an example of that. Mualanas are supposed to be, but right now they are too busy spreading hatred and violence. Just look at the HT people here. They go around judging people as muslims from their political viewpoints.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Myvoice it only happens when you take those rose tinted glasses off. Its not a decision for me or you to make. Well sorry for experssing my opnion. I will remember not to do so again. For gods sake everybody judges people and actions. Why should we discuss politics if we arent involved? Why did you care so much for the plight of iraqis under sanctions since you arent directly affected. There is no point to this discussion if you want refrain from arm chair antics.

This independent tribunal shall have people from iraq? Idoubt it. They will be lawyers and judges that will have nothing to do with iraq. How is the killing of a despotic leader a human rights violation or a normal iraqi. Honestly you make less sense in this thread than you have ever in the past 3 years on gupshup.

I still say in South Africa all those racists should have been shot. A double tap to the head. But then again the topic is this clergy man who is doing what is best humanity. I applaud his strenght and courage to say this esp. when everybody knows what Saddam has done.

Religious figures are supposed to represent the best in our society. Peace, forgiveness etc. This man is an example of that. Mualanas are supposed to be, but right now they are too busy spreading hatred and violence. Just look at the HT people here. They go around judging people as muslims from their political viewpoints.
[/QUOTE]

Expressing your opinion is just fine. In fact, I happen to raise your opinion as high as the opinion of the Pope's aide. Or maybe it's just lowering the aide's opinion to the level I put yours. PoTAYto, PoTAHto kind of thing I guess. My point is that just because some guy wears a robe doesn't make his opinion more pious and moral than my own or yours.

As to the tribunal that will try Saddam, given what I have heard to date, I would be very, very surprised if it were not dominated by Iraqi's. Whether it is judges or a jury that decides his final fate, I would expect that too to be Iraqi. The pressure for non-Iraqi justice appears to be coming from the UN and the EU based upon their opposition to capital punishment. The applicability of the death penalty within a society ought to be left to that society to decide, IMO.

Somewhat lost, I think in this exercise of opinionating, is that the factual aspects of Saddams genocide and torture are not really in dispute. For purposes of establishing guilt or innocence, the "independence" of the tribunal really will make little practical difference in the outcome. No lawyer could talk away the mass graves, the torture books maintained at prisons, the gassing of the Kurds, the slaughter of the Shias, etc. That's why I think the debate has turned at such an early stage to acceptable punishment.

Sorry Myvoice. That post was meant for nadia. Not for you. The first sentence was only. My bad. I will edit it.