Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

lol wat u indian think u r .. r infact the ppl of pakistan ..all ur history..indus valley...everything has nothing to do with at least 90% of ppl who call themself indians in modern world ...and yeh i can tell u . i can separate a pakistni form a indian.. simply we do not look the same...other then with punjabi from east or some gujratis i dun see anything common between us and u.:) ...im not recist but i can tell u i do not look like an average indian nor do most other punjabis or sindis or pathans or bluchis...and i will always try to distance my self from ppl who pick some1 else history..rivers and call it theirs when they dun even have anything to do with it:) ...

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Ho gayi na taay taay fiss ab bahar2007.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

we know what our past is, we dont need any lecture from you. when rigveda was composed in pakistan, then it has got everything to do with majority of indians. and You guys are not followers of rigveda currently, so why are you arguing?...besides, you are definitely different from us. dont worry!

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

hey egyptions ain,t either having faraos or buiding huge piramides but that dusn,t mean some1 has the rite to steal their history..but i guess our neighbor dusn,t have honour/dignity and self respect that he has to follow our scripts and steal our history ..poor folk....just dun say we r same..cuz i find just the thought of being same as ''indians'' disghusting....black / skinny and short ppl cant be the ppl of our great ivz ...

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Look a$$hole:grumpy:…why do you guys follow culture,scripture and history of saudi arabia then?..

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

we ain,t arabs r we or did we become arabs after accepting islam???:D indians may follow the scripts but that dusn,t make u the ppl of ivz..sons of soil of our land which is now pakistan:) ...

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

No doubt we consider rig veda as one of our scriptures!

Besides, who said we are sons of your land?.:D .....we are definitely not

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Our ancestors (or some of them) were Hindus but we embraced Islam a universal religion and changed for the better.

Learn to differentiate between ethnicity/culture/sec-traditions and religion.

Why would we want to read Hindu scriptures when we don't believe them?

People change religions over time, what's your obsession with being stuck in the past? Fair enough it's part of your/our history but it's so narrow minded carrying it everywhere.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Among the ancient scriptures/texts that Hindus today consider "holy" only the Rig Veda has the exclusive association with Pakistan region. All of their other holy Hindu scriptures/texts have nothing to do with Pakistan region and are based in India (particularly Gangetic Valley).

The fact is majority of the ancestors of Pakistanis were never Hindu:

[quote]
- Before the advent of Islam, the majority of people in the region of Pakistan practised Buddhism, Zoroastrianism (and its derivatives like Mithraism, Saurism, Manichaeism, etc.), Animism (nature worship), Paganism (Hellenic and other deities), and Shamanism.

  • Harappans ate beef, buried their dead, and had no Hindu temples/idols/deities.

  • RigVedic Aryans forbade idolatry, ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste system, and were culturally closer to ancient
    Avestan Iranians.

  • Under Persian rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread.

  • Similarly, Greek Paganism (Hellenism) spread under the Greeks.

  • Mauryan Ashoka introduced Buddhism.

  • Buddhism was later also propagated along with Zoroastrianism, Animism, Shamanism, and Hellenism under the Bactrians, Sakas/Scythians, Parthians, and Kushans for many centuries.

  • Hephthalites/White Huns were not very fond of Buddhism but it still remained popular among the masses.

  • The Hellenized-Iranianized Brahmanist and Shaivite converts were a minority in Pakistan.

  • Kafirs of Kalasha, the only people in Pakistan who have retained their ancient religion are an example of the non-Hindu religions practised by the ancestors of Pakistanis.

  • Many different Gangetic holy Hindu texts call Pakistan region and its people as outlandish, sinful, outcaste, mlechas, etc.

  • The pre-Muslim ancestors of most Pakistanis never called themselves Hindu nor practised any religion similar to present-day Hinduism. Thus, the pre-Muslim ancestors of most Pakistanis had nothing to do with Hinduism.

  • The fact is there is barely any trace of Hindu past in Pakistan region yet there are plentiful of Buddhist and other non-Hindu archeological remains in Pakistan region. The very few Hindu temples found in Pakistan region cannot be dated past the 9th century AD.

  • When Muslims invaded Pakistan region the majority of its people were Buddhists (as testified in Chachnama), so much so that the word for idol became "budh".

  • The word/term Hindu/Hinduism is a recent construct. It were the Muslim invaders (Ghorids) who for the first time in history imposed the foreign term Hindu on the many different peoples and religions of south Asia. The term Hinduism was given by the British colonialists. Not a single pre-Muslim/British era Vedic, Brahman, Buddhist, Jain, or any other South Asian scripture/inscription mentions the word Hindu/Hinduism. Similarly, Sanata Dharma was a term invented in the 19th century AD by Gangetic Brahmans in their desperate attempt to replace the Muslim/British term Hindu/Hinduism.

  • Terms such as Hindu/Hinduism/SanataDharma are artificial in nature because of its foreign origins and contradictions in its beliefs/practices. Just because we call all Europeans or their descendents as Goras it does not make them one people as they have many racial, religious, linguistic, cultural, and historical differences. By the same token, if the Ghorid Muslim invaders imposed the foreign word/term Hindu on the non-Muslim peoples of south Asia it does not mean that they were one people since there were/are countless different religions, cultures, histories, languages, and races in south Asia.

  • Also, by the time of Ghorid invasions (12th century AD), Pakistan region was already mostly Muslim. Most of Pakistan region was a part of Arab empires previously (later also ruled by local Muslim kingdoms). Arabs never called them Hindus. So the Ghorid imposition of the artificial term Hindu was mostly for present day north India for their ruled non-Muslim subjects.

  • A significant minority of Pakistanis are descendents of Arab, Iranian, Turkic, Mughal and Afghan invaders/migrants, who just like the rest of the ancestors of Pakistanis were Zoroastrians, Animists, Pagans, Shamanists, and Buddhists before Islam.

  • It was mostly due to Islamic Sufism that the ancestors of Pakistanis converted en masse to Islam.

  • Pre-1947 region of present-day Pakistan only had less than 15% non-Muslims, out of which half were Sikhs. Many of the Hindus were actual migrants from the region of present day India during the British rule. For example, most of the Hindus in pre-1947 Karachi had migrated from Gujarat and Rajasthan during British rule because of Karachi's economic boom then. The other remaining Hindus of local origin were converts due to Shankarcharya's missionaries from India region during post- 9th century AD period.
    [/quote]

Proof that Harappans and Rig Vedic Aryans were not Hindu:

[quote]
There has been a strong campaign by Hindu fundamentalists and Indian nationalists in trying to make wild hegemonic claims on ancient peoples who have very little to do with them. Unfortunately, a few respected scholars have also been manipulated into promoting their agendas and vested interests. This article in particular covers the ancient peoples of Indus Valley (Pakistan) called Harappans and Rigvedic Aryans (who were the ancestors of most Pakistanis) with facts that prove they were not Hindu debunking those Hindu/Indian claims. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Harappans and Rig Vedic Aryans were Hindu.

Harappans:

Not a single Hindu idol/deity/temple has been excavated at Indus sites. Plus evidence shows that Harappans ate beef and buried their dead. This is what the renowned historian John Keays states on the religion of Harappans:

"The religion of Harappans is unknown. No site has certainly been identified as a temple and most suppositions about sacrificial fires, cult objects and deities rest on doubtful retrospective references from Hindu practices of many centuries later. Such inferences may be as futile as, say, looking to Islamic astronomy for an explanation of the orientation of the pyramids. In short, these theories are all fanciful and do not bear scrutiny.

"Depicted on some Harappan seals, is that of a big-nosed gentleman wearing a horned head-dress who sits in the lotus position, an air of abstraction and an audience of animals. He cannot be the early manifestation of Lord Shiva as Pashupati, `Lord of the Beasts.' Myth, as has been noted, is subject to frequent revision. The chances of a deity remaining closely associated with the specific powers - in this case, fertility, asceticism, and familiarity with the animal kingdom - for all of two thousand years must raise serious doubts, especially since, during the interval, there is little evidence for the currency of this myth. Rudra, a Vedic deity later identified with Shiva, is indeed referred to as Pasupati because of his association with the cattle, but asceticism and meditation were not Rudra's specialties nor is he usually credited with an empathy for animals other than kine. More plausibly, it has been suggested that the Harappan figure's heavily horned headgear bespeaks a bull cult, to which numerous other representations of bulls lend substance.

"Similar doubts surround the female terracotta figurines which are often described as mother goddesses. Pop-eyed, bat-eared, belted and sometime miniskirted, they are usually of crude workmanship and grotesque mien. Only a dusty-eyed archaeologist could describe them as `pleasing little things.' The bat-ears, on closer inspection, appear to be elaborate head dresses or hairstyles. If, as the prominent and clumsily applied breasts suggest, they were fertility symbols, why bother with millinery? Or indeed miniskirts?"

The Harappan seals depicting the sitting man/deity wearing horned headdress (which Hindus claim as so called Shiva) is as follows:

Similar to this horned Harappan man/deity is the horned Celtic Cernunnos that was worshipped in parts of ancient Europe:

On the other hand, Hinduism's Shiva looks totally different:

So obviously Harappans did not worship Shiva, not even close! With Hindu hegemonic claims would ancient Europeans also be considered Hindu since the Celtic Cerrunos looks very similar to the horned Harappan deity? By the way, it is the cow that's worshipped in Hinduism whereas bull has a minor role. Bull was much more sacred in ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures similar to the popular Harappan bull.

This is further supported by Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"The Bull Cult was a prehistoric religious practice that originated in the eastern Aegean Sea and extended from the Indus Valley of Pakistan to the Danube River in eastern Europe .... The Bull Cult continued into historic times and was particularly important in the Indus Valley and on the Grecian island of Crete. In both places the bull's 'horns of consecration' were an important religious symbol."

On the non-Hindu beliefs/customs of Harappans, Richard K. Hines states:

"Similar to the cultures of ancient Middle East, it appears that the Indus religion recognized some type of life after death. Unlike Hindus who practice cremation, Indus people carefully buried their dead in wooded coffins with their heads facing north and the feet pointing south. Included in the graves were pottery jars containing food and weapons for use in the afterlife."

And on beef as a common aspect of Harappan diet, Dr. Kamal Lodaya states:

"Meat was an important part of Harappan diet which included beef, mutton, fowl, fish, and other animals."

Rig Vedic Aryans:

Now coming to the Aryans.. The concept of Aryan Race is nonsense invented by the Nazis. But what is historically correct is that Aryans were an ancient people who originally inhabited Central Asia and later migrated southwards to the regions stretching from Iran to northwest India. These early Aryans had a similar language, race, culture, and religion with many variations. The Aryans of Iran were later influenced by the Elamites and Babylonians. The Aryans of Pakistan were later influenced by the Harappans. The Aryans of north India were later influenced by the Dravidic-Mundic natives giving birth to Hinduism. Of course in later centuries other peoples also invaded/migrated bringing other influences/mixing.

The Aryans associated with the Rig Veda and Sapta Sindhu (i.e. today's Pakistan region) were definitely not Hindu because they did not follow the Hindu caste system, they ate beef, sacrificed cows, culturally were closer to Avestan Iranians, forbade idolatry, etc. Also, not a single Hindu idol/temple has been excavated from the Rig Vedic Aryan period.

Here are some excerpts that support my views:

“The evidence of the Rig Veda shows that during the centuries when the Aryans were occupying the Punjab and composing the hymns of the Rig Veda, the north-west part of the subcontinent was culturally separate from the rest of India. The closest cultural relations of the Indo-Aryans at that period were with the Iranians, whose language and sacred texts are preserved in the various works known as the Avesta, in inscriptions in Old Persian, and in some other scattered documents. So great is the amount of material common to the Rig Veda Aryans and the Iranians that the books of the two peoples show common geographic names as well as deities and ideas”. (Pakistan and Western Asia, By Prof. Norman Brown)

According to A. L. Stravrianos on the non-Hindu nature of Rig Vedic Aryans:

"The word Veda means knowledge. There were originally four Vedas, but the most important is the Rigveda, which is also the oldest. The Rigveda is a primary source for study of the early Aryans; it is in essence a collection of 1028 hymns arranged in ten books. Per the Vedas, Aryans worshiped elements of nature in personified forms, and idolatry was forbidden.

"In Rig Veda, the gods of Dyaus is the same as the Greek Zeus (Roman Jupiter), Mitra is the same as the Graeco-Roman Mithras, Ushas is the same as the Greek Eos (Roman Aurora), and

Agni is the same as the Graeco-Roman Ignis.

"The image of the Aryans that emerges from Vedic literature is that of a virile people, fond of war, drinking, chariot racing, and gambling. Their god of war, Indra, was an ideal Aryan warrior: ‘he dashed into battle joyously, wore golden armor, and was able to consume the flesh of three hundred buffaloes and drink three lakes of liquor at one time’.

"When they first arrived in the South Asia the Aryans were primarily pastoralists. Their economic life centered around their cattle and wealth was judged on the basis of the size of herds. As the newcomers settled in fertile river valleys, they gradually shifted more to agriculture. They lived in villages consisting of a number of related families. Several villages comprised a clan, and several clans a tribe, at the head of which was the king. The king’s authority depended on his personal prowess and initiative, and was limited by the council of nobles, and in some tribes by the freemen.

"The outstanding characteristics of this early Aryan society was its basic difference from the later Hinduism. Cows were not worshipped but eaten. Intoxicating spirits were not forsaken but joyously consumed. There were classes but no castes, and the priests were subordinate to the nobles rather than at the top of the social pyramid. In short, Aryan society resembled much more the contemporary Indo-European societies than it did Hinduism that was to develop in later centuries in the Gangetic Valley."

Further supports how a few Aryans who later migrated eastward towards India slowly became Hindu because of Dravidic-Mundic influences:

"The castes were hardened by the time the Aryans occupied the middle land i.e., the Gangetic Valley and distinguished themselves from their brethern in Sind and the Punjab who were despised by them for not observing the rules of caste .... and for their non-Brahmanical character.” (Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakur)

“While some Aryans had by now expanded far into India, their old home in the Punjab, Sind and the north-west was practically forgotten. Later Vedic literature mentions it rarely, and then usually with disparagement and contempt, as an impure land where sacrifices are not performed.” (The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham)

This is further supported by Dr. Gurupdesh Singh:

"From geographical information in the RigVeda, the Vedic Period (1500-500 BC) was confined to the northwest. The hymns composed by Vedic mystics/poets of the northwest (Saptha Sindhva) tell that the Vedic peoples worshipped non-Brahmanical Gods (Indra, Varuna, Mitra), ate cows, elected their chiefs, drank liqor, considered the Punjab rivers to be sacred, and refer to people living to the south in the gangetic region as 'Dasyas'! None of the gangetic Brahmanical gods (e.g Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Brahma, etc.) are mentioned in RigVeda hyms nor do they appear in connected Aryan Avestan texts and Hittite tablets. Avestan terms for soldiers ('rathaestar') and citizens ('vastriyo') are similar to Vedic-derived terms (kshatriyas, vasihyas) but the Avestan term for priest ('athravan') is not even close to 'Brahmanas'. Moreover, central Gangetic religious texts like the Mahabharta and VarnaAshramDharma of Manu call the Vedic Aryans in Saptha Sindhva 'mlechas', 'sudras' and 'vratyas'; 'forbid Brahmins' from even visiting the northwest country ('Vahika-desa'); and depict dark Dravidian Gods like Krishna fighting and defeating Vedic Aryan gods like Indra (Mahabharta). Similarly, the RigVeda contains taboos and injunctions against the 'dasya-varta' region to the south of Saptha Sindhva and praises Indra (god of thunderbolt) for victories over 'dasya-purahs' (dasya cities).

"Both early RigVedic and gangetic Puranic sources clearly point to ethnic, cultural and religious differences and a 'clash of civilizations and nations' at the ganga indicating that the Vedic people and culture of the northwest did not accept the gangetic priests, their gods, shastras, religion, culture and Brahmanical caste ideology. The eastern gangetic heartland is not only historically a separate region, but geographically resides over 1500 miles to the southeast of the Saptha Sindhva country. Uptil the advent of Mohammed Ghori in the 13th century, the northwest was politically unified with southasia only 92 years under the Mauryas (out of 27 centuries) since the start of Saptha Sindhva’s Vedic period (1500 BC).

"A few Vedic tribes from Saptha Sindhva broke RigVedic norms and migrated southward. These numerically outnumbered groups expanding into the trans-gangetic region near the end of the Vedic period (8-6th century BC) tried to use the indigenous Dravidian priesthood to entrench themselves as the new ruling order. Within a few generations of acquiring control over the foreign Gangasthan, the minority Vedic tribes were usurped by the indigenous 'borrowed' priesthood; their Aryan religion, gods and customs mostly deposed and supplanted with indigenous gangetic gods and mythologies; and their new social order (varna or color based) replaced with the pre-existing profession (jati) based Brahmanical caste system ('chatur-varna' ). Through religious manipulation and intrigue, the Vedic in-comers to Gangasthan were usurped and made to surrender their political rule and soon pigeon-holed into becoming the loyal obedient chownkidars of their 'superior' dravidic Brahmanas."

Now coming to idolatry which is an integral part of Hinduism, there are clear evidences of early Aryans rejecting it :

“They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti—the material cause of the world—in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the Prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time.”—Yajur Veda 40:9.

“The Formless Supreme Spirit that pervades the universe can have no material representation, likeness or image.”—Yajur Veda 32:3.

Also, early Aryans had a Monist belief of worshipping elements of nature (in non-idolatrous personified forms): “There is only one God, worship Him” (Rig Veda, Vol. 6, Hymn 45 vs 16 ) and “Do not worship any one beside Him” (Rig Veda Bk. 8, Hymn 1, Vs 1)

Then there are clear evidences in the Rig Veda that Aryans regularly ate beef and sacrificed cows for religious purposes which are strictly forbidden in Hinduism:

Hymn CLXIX of the Rig Veda says: "May the wind blow upon our cows with healing; may they eat herbage ... Like-colored various-hued or single- colored whose names through sacrifice are known to Agni, Whom the Angirases produced by Ferbvour - vouschsafe to these, Parjanya, great protection. Those who have offered to the gods their bodies whose varied forms are all well known to Soma" [The Rig Veda (RV), translated by Ralph H. Griffith, New York, 1992, p. 647]. In the Rig Veda (RV: VIII.43.11) Agni is described as "fed on ox and cow" suggesting that cattle were sacrificed and roasted in fire.

Rigveda (10/85/13) declares, “On the occasion of a girl’s marriage oxen and cows are slaughtered”, and Rigveda (6/17/1) states that “Indra used to eat the meat of cow, calf, horse and buffalo.”

Quoting from Rigveda, historian H. H Wilson writes, “the sacrifice and consumption of horse and cow appears to have been common in the early periods of the Aryan culture.”

Conclusion:

Finally, to claim that Hinduism has been evolving is simply a very weak argument. Every religion is identified with a set of beliefs and customs making it distinct and recognizable from others, including Hinduism. Any people and religion can claim of their beliefs and customs evolving, but when a change occurs it represents a new identity. For example, Catholic Christianity is not the same religion as ancient Roman Paganism. Therefore, since Harappan and Rig Vedic Aryan religions were very different from Hinduism's beliefs and customs, they cannot be Hindu. Additionally, Harappans and Rig Vedic Aryans of Indus/Pakistan region were geographically a distinct people having no association with Gangetic Valley and the rest of most India where Hinduism was born in later centuries, nor did they call themselves Hindu.

In conclusion, all the evidence proves that Harappans and early Aryans were not Hindu. The hegemonic and imperialistic Hindu fanatic and Indian nationalist claims on them are simply false propaganda based on myths and distorted history.

[/quote]

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

since you dont believe in your ancestors beliefs, then why complaint when someone else is believing it?. and I am happy that i/my ancestors didn't change. I do differentiate between whatever you said. Yup...people do change religions over time. and in future also they will. change is the only constant thing in this world. and i didn't understand the last part of the last sentence!

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Here we go:D ....chalo maan liya ki rig veda is exclusive to pakistan region and the rest of them to india. BTW, many of the mantras of rig veda are comman with other vedas as well. even some of the cosmic forces/devatas of rigveda are found in other vedas as well. there It may be exclusive to pakistani region....i repeat region. and why are you quoting verses from yajur veda. yajur veda has nothing to do with discussion here!. and there is no point in debating all these.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??


Well if you consider me fundamentalist its your opinion, but some absurd claims that were made about Sanskrit and Indian languages don't make you and bahar2007 any moderate or enlightened.


Actually Hindustani is Urdu+Hindi and is a later creation. This is due to social interaction betwen Hindus and Muslims in the subcontinent for some 800 years.

The so-called Sanskritised Hindi has nothing to do with deliberate action. **All Indian languages (except Tamil and some far north-east dialects) are Sanskritised. That includes Urdu.

Here are some Urdu words which are rooted in Sansrit :

Urdu word---Sanskrit root

**Suraj ----Surya
Chaand----Chandrama
Aag---- Agni
Muh (face)---- Mukh
Haathi---- Haathi
Chalna (to walk)---- Chaalan
Sangeet---- Sangeet
Baat (talk)---- Vaad
Kal (tomorrow)---- Kaal
Numbers 1 to 10 ekam, dwi, tri, chatur, pancham, shashtam, saptam, ashtam, navam, dasham

Now these are only that I could think of right now.

Indian languages like Bengali, Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Oriya, etc. have far greater similarities. It is undoubdted by linguists that Sanskrit is the mother of all Indian languages and has influenced Urdu also.


Well you are mistaken. Guru Granth Sahib is full of references to Hindu gods and mythology and Punjabi as we know it has a whole lot of Sanskrit rooted words.

If you don't approve of Punjabi on Indian side, Indian Punjabis may not like Persianised Punjabi on Pakistani side. Persianised Punjabi also qualifies as horribly unnaturalised Punjabi on this side of the border.

In a nutshell :
Indians descend from the Rigvedic Aryans who spoke Vedic Sanskrit (later codified by Panini), and the Tamil speakers of India. The multitude of languages, cultures, arts, literature, dance forms, etc. are all rooted there.

When Muslims invaded India, we were labelled as "Hindu", which was derived from the river "Sindhu" that was sacred to the people. When the British came to India, Sindhu changed to "Indus" and we came to be called "Indians".

One more thing : RigVeda is the holiest Hindu text held sacred by few hundred million Hindus. It is written in Vedic Sanskrit, the root language of Indian languages.
Using the RigVeda to prove RigVedic Aryans were not our ancestors is like using the Quran to prove that modern Pakistanis, Morroccans and Malays have no link to Prophet Mohammad.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

pagel indians.
India wasnt even united till mughels era.

In other words there was no india. you took you part we took ours.
As Mr. jinnah said "we had no england to go back to"

we took pakistan.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

pagel india???:confused:

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Urdu is a Sanskritic language because it is just another dialect of Hindvi/Hindustani like Hindi.

I have no problem with Sanskrit vocabulary in Urdu because Urdu has more relation to Sanskrit than it does to Semitic or Avestan (Persian etc.) languages, my point was it’s narrow minded to be so stringent and insist on keeping a language “pure” from all foreign influences because all languages evolve by assimilating from other languages or else they become incompetent and outdated, evolution has happened with English and it will happen with our languages, the new words become a part of that language’s vocabulary just as much as they are of the language they were take from and they don’t change a language’s roots or identity, of course when new words are assimilated into a language they have to be adapted or they sound hideously out of place like with many words of Arabic and Persian origin in Urdu.

I think Paki nationalists need to stop their obsession with Persian and also encourage the use of Sanskrit words in Urdu literature (together with suitable vocabulary from Persian/Arabic) because there is a difference between religion and culture, even after embracing Islam some of us Pakistanis have carried on this un-Islamic mindset that ethnicity and religion are related so we can’t be proper Muslims as Desis so we have to be Arab which is wrong because Islam is a universal religion and all ethnicities have equal rights to it unlike ethnicist/casteist religions such as Judaism or Brahminsim, we can be Muslims and still hold onto our language, culture and secular traditions, we have religious relations with the rest of the Muslim world and that’s enough because it’s all that matters, we don’t have to adopt their culture.

Those who brought Sanskrit to South Asia are amongst the ancestors of Pakistanis (together with others e.g. Indus Valley people), Panini was Pakistani (remember name change doesn’t mean identity change), in fact those who brought Sanskrit to South Asia only gave their genes to Pakistan and northwestern India, it is more likely that the rest of India (including the Sanskritic speaking northern states), Sri Lanka and Bangladesh only got culture and religion from them.

I also think we need to start using a adapted form of the Devanagri script which is edited so that is has all the sound of Urdu and there is no confusion between “z” and “j” because that would sound hideous.

I don’t think it matters to Almighty Allah whether I call him Khuda or Ishvar when I’m speaking in my language.

As for Indians they should allow a few foreign words in official Hindi instead of insisting on just words of Sanskrit origin because that’s the way it is in proper vernacular Hindi, my Indians friends have no problem speaking to me or I to them, I find that people from Delhi are very much like people from Lahore and those from Mumbai like people from Karachi. When I first met them I was a bit anxious and made an effort to only use words such as patni, parivar, pita ji, buddhi, ishvar, kirpa, dhanivad and my friends did the same only using words commonly used in Urdu but we soon realised we can understand each other just fine in our usual dialects and it’s quite easy to know the meaning of a new word just by the context it is used in so now we just talk normal, southies need to be Hindised though because they sometimes use incomprehendible Malayalam words in Hindi, I can understand Sanskrit origin words just fine because in vernacular Urdu/Punjabi spoken in Pakistan they are quite common and that’s what the older generation use (it is only the official version of Urdu which is overtly Persianised), I guess same is the case on the Indian side as my Sikh friends tell me where it was overtly Sanskritised after partition, the older generation speak like anyone from our side of Wagah, Sikh elders here sound just like our elders and it’s quite heart warming whereas the news on Alpha Punjabi is just not like that.

You mentioned the Guru Granth Sahib being rooted in Hinduism, the Gurus rejected the authority of the Hindu scriptures, only the Guru Granth Sahib is a authority in the Sikh religion, the first Guru ji combined Islam and Hinduism, I agree with you that he did borrow many concepts from Hinduism such as using the title Ik-Onkar (Aum) for God but he rejected the trinity it represented in Hinduism, he taught that it represents three attributes of one person God rather than three persons in one God, he called God Ram but he denied that he were a person like depicted in Hinduism but rather a name for the Incomprehendible/Transcendent One, he also used many Arabic words for God such as Allaah, Rabb, Rahman, Raheem and Persian words such as Khuda, he even assimilated some poetry in praise of God from ascetics who followed Islam or its offshoots.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Pakistan4Ever we are not descended from Arabs or Iranians, at least not the vast majority of us and we don’t have any inferiority complexes or wannabe tendencies.

Even if some of us are partially of foreign descent it’s only partial and the Iranian/Arab genes that we got from some trader or solider boning somebody’s foremother have been diluted by the vast amount of local genes, and race is irrelevant in South Asia anyway because we South Asians have always been a multi-racial/mixed race group of people descending from Indus-Aborigines, Dravidians, Vedic Aryans and to some extent Iranians and Semites, but that’s just our past, it’s our region and culture/language today which gives us our national/ethnic identity, I’m sorry but even though I love and respect all my fellow Muslims around the world and I’m proud to belong to the universal Muslim family I wouldn’t feel satisfied and content with any other culture except the Desi one.

Pakistan is only necessary as a separate state because we are Muslims not because we are a different ethnicity from Indians, we have a similar culture to them and we’re even racially the same as those from northwestern India, Pakistan wasn’t meant to have a Middle Eastern identity but a Muslim South Asian one, religion is enough an excuse to have a separate state because we wouldn’t feel secure in a majority Hindu culture just look at Kashmir, Gujarat, Ayodhya, Harmindar Sahib or look at the Gujarati Muslims that came to this country who don’t want to go back and don’t do for 25+ years, once a Tablighi told us he went to India and they were sat in a hotel when something about bomb blasts was on the news, all the Indians went pale with fear, he asked them what was up, he told them they have nothing to worry because they’re not the culprits, they replied said to him what do you know, you'll go to your secure home but this is a signal of death for us because no matter who did it all Indian Muslims will get the blame and we’ll have to pay for it (I can relate to their fear as a British Muslim in these times), prior to this incident this guys hated Jinnah and wanted a united India like most Mullahs but after that incident he changed and as soon as he landed in Karachi, the first thing he did was go straight to the grave of Jinnah and pray for him.

Not to say that all Hindus are inherently evil and all Muslims are angels, no because these sorts of incidents also happen in Pakistan, there’s always friction when values and beliefs are different even if culture is the same, it’s easier to have a separate state and still be peaceful and cooperate with our neighbours.

I am Muslim and I have no desire to be anything else and I'm Desi/South Asian and I've no desire to be anything else, if all Pakistanis accepted who they are they'd be happier and more content.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

Nice post.

Re: Partition from India OR Independence from British Legacy??

-Promiscuous Paki-](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/member.php?u=48404) first time in pakistan’s history our real history is being taught.
Starting from Harapa/mohonjo daro/texla/ gandhara times.
This genration(kids in school at present day) will be proud to own their identity as decendent of such advance civilised people.

Please note that there is no proof that Harapa/mohonjo daro/texla were owned by south indians.

Pakistan should have picked a different language then urdu may be arabic.
As israelis picked “Ebrani” language and they feel proud to speak it.