Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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KB, Good question. Thanks.

Vietnamese have definitely adopted the Far eastern view that is shared between Chinese, S.Koreans, Japanese etc. They have forgiven and forgotten about the Vietnam war, and now making a huge effort to sell Vietnam as a tourist and manufacturing destination for the US and EU.

Just as Japanese forgave and forgot getting nuked (the largest destruction in the shortest time) in the WW-II, and became a pro-US country. Vietnamese too have done the same in the post-Vietnam war period.

Indians are pretty much following and perhaps competing with the Chinese, the S. Koreans, and the Japanese to make India as a tourist and services destination for the US and the EU.

Oh BTW, I hope you have noted that the specific world view is applicable down at the level of common man in India, China, S.Korea, and the Vietnam and not just some government-to-government contact between their governments and the US/EU.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

^Burqa Bhai your analysis is a bit off track.

The response of common people in Middle East, India and Pakistan to western dominance have been more or less similar. Most leaders of these areas who were exposed to western culture and ideology thought that a replication of western system in their own countries was the way to go. They all tried it, like Mustafa Kamal in Turkey, Mohammad Ali in egypt, Shah in Iran, Sir Syed Ahmed etc. But none of them really succeeded. In the process the people became divided. A class of people emerged that neither belonged to east nor to west. They became alienated from their own culture, yet did not feel fully at home in west too, nor were accepted as such by westerners.

If we learn from history then, the lesson is copying or rather photocopying does not work. A wholescale change of perpectives leads to confusion, anarchy and rebellion. The change HAS to be graudal and has to come from within. And this actually did start to happen quite well pre-9/11. People were seeing a gradual change, our students were studying in hoards in western universities, our social system was gradually adopting modern values. The conflict that occured after 9/11 and the dogma of "they are attacking our way of life", lead to polarization again.

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Obviously both of them were following Middle Eastern view of the world. Go ahead and add Afghani Kings, and primitive tree dwellers from Africa in the same list.

In fact Mohammad Ali of Egypt in particular is perhaps the pioneer when it comes to Middle Eastern Leaders trying to ape the West with a Middle Eastern /African / tribal world view. Around his time there was an Egyptian author who wrote a book about Japan (pre-WW-II off course), and praised the Japanese for one thing. That Japanese are "standing up to the West".

Poor Egyptian fella miserably failed to realize that Japan was "cooperating" with the Europeans since 1700's. How? Japanese were making cheap stuff for the European corporations just like Chinese are doing these days.

This is why it is important to note the world view of a particular region to see why certain things failed or succeeded there. Without this yard stick, you will end up with incomplete analysis and hence inaccurate conclusions.

We cannot put Mustafa Kamal / Turkey in the same group as basket cases like Egypt or Iran.

Sorry.

Turkey is half the population of Pak and 7 times our earning all thanks to them adopting a non-Middle Eastern view of the world. Modern Turkey has always dreamt of becoming Europe and all their actions like joining NATO and application for EU are pointing towards them trying their level best to adopt European view of the world.

That's why Turkey perhaps is the ONLY Muslim country (with a close second Malaysia) where standard of living is way at the top even when they don't have large scale oil reserves.

And BTW Malaysian public, thanks to a large section of local Chinese and Indians are following the same approach as other Far Eastern countries like Japan, China, S. Korea, and in particular Singapore.

So yes we have recent examples of countries doing well if they follow Far Eastern countries' world/life view (and not just do a monkey business with their so-called Middle Eastern style European aping).

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

Talking about earnings, I mentioned India and Vietnam since they have very similar economic development as Pakistan despite having a 'different world view' as you put it.

I do not think that you can measure superiority of a 'world view' by standard of living. It changes through decades and is a very transitory. Nations develop through education and learning and fall when they stop doing that. The Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Europeans.... they all developed through education. It is no coincidence that 60% of the people in Micheal Hart's 100 greatest men come from Europe, between 14th and 18th century, and are scientists, poets, philosophers, etc. Europe prospered because they READ those peoples' work and not by following another world view.

Time Pass*~*SALAM SiTam BER ~*~
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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

Pakistan doesn't have to buy anyone's version of prospects. Pakistan can, and I think it's about time, did define its own prospects of Geopolitical priorities, and thereby adopting an approach that is Pakistan and Islam centric. In the midst of utter darkness, you should not look for the lamp that used to light the brightest, you should strive to shine yourself so other can illuminate in your light and look up to you for guidance.

Pakistan's destiny has to be greater than taking dictations, and directions. Its destiny should be that of a leader in all aspects with dedication to Islam as the primary faith at its core, and the well-being of all humanity as its priority and goal.

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What kind of logic is that?

No one comes out of his/her mother's womb while holding a PhD degree. May be that is the case in your close circles.

But in the wider world it doesn't happen and it has never happened. Even prophets and Aulias had to go and learn from some one else.

FYI!

Every "NORMAL" person learns from "Best Practices" from other successful persons.

Every "NORMAL" group learns from "Best Practices" from other successful groups.

Every "NORMAL" company learns from "Best Practices" from other successful companies.

Every "NORMAL" nation learns from "Best Practices" from other successful nations.

Haven't you realized by now that nations who adapt to the latest "best practices" in the quickest fashion reach the top of the world?

On the other hand primitive tree dweller tribals remain stuck. you know where? to the tree branches.

Perhaps you would like Pakistan to become primitive tent dweller Biddus from Arabia, that's why you refuse the fact that Pakistan too has to learn from other successful countries.

Time Pass*~*SALAM SiTam BER ~*~
Time Pass*~*SALAM SiTam BER ~*~
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^^^^

If somebody is left with monkeys as an infant, most likely after 20 years will be acting like them eating bananas and living on trees.

Learning from other cultures and civilizations, in short from other human beings is the only way forward. Living in isolation and becoming hostile to other civilizations will only turn us in to brainless monkeys!

Visual Karachi: From Paris of Asia, to City of Lights, to Hell on Earth
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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

"successful countries" and "best practices" are relative. Was Ganghis Khan successful?

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burqaposhx Ji

How soon you forgot what the European view was just 60 years ago.........

You want Pakistan to follow the Europeans.........

it was in Europe that 6 million Jews were gassed and killed........

it was in Europe also that more than 500,000 Bosnian Muslims were massacerd by the Serbs.........

So which one of those views is your Favorite?

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

I feel like shooting myself after reading OP.

Please, someone just shoot me.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

In fact after reading numerous post I really question what the hell is going on here.

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Muhammad Ali during his time did a lot ofthings to turn a poor province of Turkey into 20th century. He introduced a western style administration. He brought European officers in egypt to run beurocracy and train egyptian officers. He sent egyption students to universities of France and England on scholarships. He established miltary colleges and artillery schools run by europeans to train his army. He took over all the awqaf land being run by clergy in his personal possession. He established lot of industry like cotton and mills, glass, dyeing, iron etc

[QUOTE]

In fact Mohammad Ali of Egypt in particular is perhaps the pioneer when it comes to Middle Eastern Leaders trying to ape the West with a Middle Eastern /African / tribal world view. Around his time there was an Egyptian author who wrote a book about Japan (pre-WW-II off course), and praised the Japanese for one thing. That Japanese are "standing up to the West".

[/QUOTE]

^Lot of hindus in Congress did teh same. Just read about how many Indian mainly hindu soldiers deserted British army to fight for Japanese.

As for Turkey, it was an empire eveb before Ata Turk and had a much better headsart.

Malaysians on the other hand have the same worldview as middle easterners.

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That's very valid. Each era / time defines the best practices.

If you were living in 1230 AD, this may be something to study.

However if you are "really" and "relatively" living in current times, that good ole khan sabhib is "interesting topic" but irrelevant to the 21st century.

Hope you understand that.

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So we both agree that Mohammad Ali's Egypt was a failure, and oh by the way Egypt of 2009 is a failure too. Correct?

Then an aqalmand nation WILL NOT do what Egyptians did or what they are doing now. Their approach to life and this world is obviously an utter failure.

Instead, for Pakistan it is better to learn from aka copy South Korea, Singapore, China, or Japan.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

^What i am trying to say that copying does not work, innovation does.

Eid-Ul-Adha - Hajj-E-Akbar - (Oct-Time Pass)
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Innovation = copy the current knowledge + add the new knowledge

You don't reinvent the wheel.

You learn by copying the current knowledge base from your favorite institution, and then you follow that institution's rules to advance and innovate the future course.

If you copy the approach/knowledge from Mohammad Ali's Egypt, then you become another basket case version of Egypt.

If you copy the current approach/knowledge from Japan, then you become as prosperous as Japanese. However you must keep up by charting future roads using your own brains.

If you copy the current approach/knowledge from China, then you become as prosperous as Chinese. However you must keep up by charting future roads using your own brains.

If you copy the current approach/knowledge from modern day Germany, then you become as prosperous as Germans. However you must keep up by charting future roads using your own brains.

If someone who copies the approach/knowledge from Hitler's Germany, then he/she may become Nazi.

If you copy the current approach/knowledge from modern day South Koreans, then you become as prosperous as S. Koreans. However you must keep up by charting future roads using your own brains.

The choice is yours.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

^Again a very simp;listic approach to a complex problem, Its been a couple of hundred years that west became dominant, they did not do so by copying the dominant civilzation ones before them, neither did the ones before them.

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IC. This is becoming behs brai behs now. Try to pick individual points and discuss them to have an exchange of ideas.

Just shooting down the other person and repeating main na maanoo will obviously not help.

Here is point by point rebuttal to what you just said.

Complex problem? --- obviously Yes!
Simplistic approach? --- off course if we argue on mere words, it will look simpler. However if there is a genuine desire to learn, then there is knowledge to be had.

This is a valid point to be discussed via historical perspective.

The problem with such arguments is simple. If one cannot analyze the things in 2009 and accept the facts, then how could you go back 100's or 1000's years to learn anything?

The last 15 years have unfolded in front of our eyes. We have personally observed how China, South Korea, Malaysia, Japan has copied from the West, and the West has copied from the Far Eastern countries.

Although Far Easterners have obviously copied more.

If our eyes are so closed about our present, what the heck we are going to learn from the past.

---- Muslims copied Romans and Greeks. If not then what the heck were they doing in the Byzantine libraries?
---- Europeans copied Ottomans and berbers.

If anyone denies this simple fact, perhaps he/she needs to pickup few good books.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

Burqa Bhai we both agree that our world view need to change, world views are not "knowledge" that can be copied from libraries, its much more than that.

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Re: Pakistanis' choice - Buy the Middle Eastern (Arab Muslim) view of the world Or?

You are right - Pakistani philosophy is at the root of our problems. I don't know whether you can blame Islam, but you can certainly blame Pakistani INTERPRETATION of Islam as one part of the failed Pakistani philosophy. Tribalism is another. Rejection of equal rights is another. Denial of women's rights is another. Lack of cleanliness is another. Multiple facets of our philosophy as Pakistanis which contribute to our failure.

We fight our battles with guns and funded guerrilla warfare, which recruits using a corrupted religious ideology masqueraded around as "Islam". Which is total BS, and because of lack of religion, people fall for it all the time. Even educated people fall for it all the time, because public forums of rational debate are so scarce.

Leadership is based entirely from tribalism.

So on and so on. Pakistan has a number of issues to fix before it can move forth as a sensible participant in the international economy. Until then, terrorists will continue to eat away at it, and quality of life will continue to suffer --> further brain drain --> and the country in the next 10 years will be no better than living in Afghanistan.