PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

[armughal]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

^ u think nescio found the right answer because it conforms with your own thoughts, many others find it no more than a dumb statement....

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@armughal

^ just because a woman give birth at an age which is out of norm, u dump the whole history???? thats not very wise....

No ! We should take historical details witha pinch of salt, and start re-washing our brain with the belief that fabrication in islamic historic records is a fact. And sahi book are not free from it.

The declaration of 'Sahi books' (the books of narations from prophet and companions, which some scholars deemed free from errors) is not from prophet nor any authority in Islam, And I doubt even their authors did make such a tall claim.

I am of the opinion that one should seek quidance from them as well as from other sources which are inline with quranic teachings. Rest should be dubbed a doubtful. as we know it is.

[quote]

and btw khadija (ra)'s age is something which both versions of islamic hostory (as u put it) agree upon....
atleast i've not seen much argument over this issue....
[/quote]

Well this agreed upon thing can be wrong too !

It was easy to take that case for study because there are no emotional strings attached. And people can ponder wiht cool mind ..and not jumping up, issuing fatwas of kufar or sliting throats in case of disagreement.

We see that on one hand historian claim that she concieved her daughter around the age of 60 ( probability : 1/ 1 billion ) and her daughter concieved 4 perfectly healthy kids and a miscarraige /still birth before reaching tthe agae of 18 !!

And her sons barely 3,4 years of age at that time could actually remember and narrate a quite a few number of hadees they heard from grandfather at later stage of their life.

^^It all may seem possible but extreme. Either they were bad with numbers or their was some political motive to record these dubious numbers

So what we can do is to treet this as it is. They are not going to affect our imaan in anyway. But believing these dubious records as fact could be lethal.

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

[quote]
glad we agree... in principle at least.. cuz this knowledge leads me to reject the entire corpse of hadith and for you to still dogmatically cling to it... despite knowing better.
[/quote]

Well it would be as typical as believing in everything as fact.
Because in both cases , no further reasearch is required.

But you have already said that

[quote]

BUT the important point in all this is not the fact that he was gay or not, It's that we are able to discuss this aspect of his life freely and entertain any new discoveries and theories along the way. THAT is how IMO History should be treated. Open to discussion, not a sealed shut verdict.
[/quote]

So ?

Are you going to cling to (PCG's favorite ) notion " Men are pigs" because their are some bad apples in the basket ? :)

[armughal]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@Code_Red

No ! We should take historical details witha pinch of salt, and start re-washing our brain with the belief that fabrication in islamic historic records is a fact. And sahi book are not free from it.

The declaration of ‘Sahi books’ (the books of narations from prophet and companions, which some scholars deemed free from errors) is not from prophet nor any authority in Islam, And I doubt even their authors did make such a tall claim.

I am of the opinion that one should seek quidance from them as well as from other sources which are inline with quranic teachings. Rest should be dubbed a doubtful. as we know it is.

Well this agreed upon thing can be wrong too !

It was easy to take that case for study because there are no emotional strings attached. And people can ponder wiht cool mind ..and not jumping up, issuing fatwas of kufar or sliting throats in case of disagreement.

We see that on one hand historian claim that she concieved her daughter around the age of 60 ( probability : 1/ 1 billion ) and her daughter concieved 4 perfectly healthy kids and a miscarraige /still birth before reaching tthe agae of 18 !!

And her sons barely 3,4 years of age at that time could actually remember and narrate a quite a few number of hadees they heard from grandfather at later stage of their life.

^^It all may seem possible but extreme. Either they were bad with numbers or their was some political motive to record these dubious numbers

So what we can do is to treet this as it is. They are not going to affect our imaan in anyway. But believing these dubious records as fact could be lethal.

first, u need to really know what is meant by saheeh…
beause really when i read ur post, i feel that u dont actually know what it means…

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

ok then explain it to me

I guess this is the reason we all (or atleast myself) are here for

[PakistaniAbroad]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@Code_Red

Are you going to cling to (PCG's favorite ) notion " Men are pigs" because their are some bad apples in the basket ? :)

Not exactly the best parallel.. million of men and all unrelated to each other.. Hadith are intertwined. All attempt to describe the same era and the same personalities and are purported to be narrated by a fixed number of people who lived in the same era.

Makes it rather easy to spot inconsistencies and anomalies especially when you have The Criterion, Al-Furqan in your hand.

So applying the "PCG approach".. let's say if any hadith is found to be false, ALL narrators in the chain MUST be blacklisted.. in fact.. the person who collected it and gave it his seal of approval should be ignored too. Note, it's not a black mark on the personalities involved but it's us being cautious of imposters using these pious people's name and propagating falsehoods.

Try that and u'd soon be left with like 10 hadith which will be just a report of someone hearing the prophet having recited the Qur'an .. without anything extra to add.

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@PakistaniAbroad

Not exactly the best parallel.. million of men and all unrelated to each other.. Hadith are intertwined. All attempt to describe the same era and the same personalities and are purported to be narrated by a fixed number of people who lived in the same era.

most probaly

Makes it rather easy to spot inconsistencies and anomalies especially when you have The Criterion, Al-Furqan in your hand.

So now we agree that there common / agreed upon touchstone, namely the quran :k: aye te fer roula hi muk gaya

So applying the “PCG approach”.. let’s say if any hadith is found to be false, ALL narrators in the chain MUST be blacklisted.. in fact.. the person who collected it and gave it his seal of approval should be ignored too. Note, it’s not a black mark on the personalities involved but it’s us being cautious of imposters using these pious people’s name and propagating falsehoods.

Waita second sir,
We all are hearing abt uncle mushy’s book “In the line of fire” in which he has unveiled many secrets, Some I believe are true, other i dont know. He said he and his forces played major role in somalia , and It was completley ignored in the film ’ Black Hawk down ’ , Say what ?
it can be checked easily ! If true , then its fine …otherwise should we reject all claims in his book as false ?

Now I going to give you and all other reader another example. ( I hope you wont shoot me for this +:clown: )

*Volume 1, Book 5, Number 278:
*
*Narrated Um Hani bint Abi Talib: *

*I went to Allah’s Apostle in the year of the conquest of Mecca and found him taking a bath while Fatima was screening him. The Prophet asked, “Who is it?” I replied, “I am Um-Hani.” *

Source

^^ This is it. end of hadees
It is taken from website claiming that it is from sahih bukhari.

Now i have read it many times and what i understood is that prophet(pbuh) was taking bath and his daughter was standing as guard with a screen ( there may be no proper door to bathroom ) and there came the lady and prophet might have heard some noise and asked who is it, and she replied i am.
and then ?
End ?

Are we missing something here ?

What do you people understand from this hadees ? Is there any saying of prophet ? I am utterly confused

I should here tell something about imam bukhari (may allah be pleased with him) he spent some 24 years in researching and collecting hadees and then he compiled his collection of ‘authentic’ hadees only. Some 2000 odd hadees passed his stringent criteria from some 300,000 he collected during his research. What is so special in this particular report that it passed such a strict criteria ??

Do you seriously think this is a hadees ? with no message, no command whatsoever. Just casual enquiry !

In my opinion there could be several possibilities here …

1. There might be something more in this hadees… and it may have lost due to natural reasons , erosion, worn out pages etc in orignal few copies… and then people kept copying as it is ,believing it to be Sahih. and no addition or omision should be done.

2. There happened some tweaking in this book during the last 1200 years and stuff added or ommitted most likely shortly after it first compilation . After all no one guaranteed it saftey, unlike quran. Rest, Allah knows the best

[armughal]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

^ another thread in this very same forum, currently running, has a question "r we allowed to talk in the bathroom?"....
post this hadith there, and i am sure the person who raised the question will definitely get an answer....

but we first need to know whether such a hadith really does exist in the sahih bukhari or not....
internet aint so reliable....
"alim" is a very popular software for Quran and other islamic info, but i've seen it myself, and it has verses missing and hence in some surahs, where the verse is referred to as verse 10, it is actually verse 11, cuz one verse earlier has been mistakenly ommitted....
it does not mean the Quran itself misses a verse....
maybe it was the site who got it half....

i've read translations of old books and where there is missing info, the translator has mantioned it specifically that something is missing here, and maybe this is what the author wished to write....

[Iconoclast]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@Code_Red

Waita second sir,
We all are hearing abt uncle mushy’s book “In the line of fire” in which he has unveiled many secrets, Some I believe are true, other i dont know. He said he and his forces played major role in somalia , and It was completley ignored in the film ’ Black Hawk down ’ , Say what ?
it can be checked easily ! If true , then its fine …otherwise should we reject all claims in his book as false ?

Now I going to give you and all other reader another example. ( I hope you wont shoot me for this +:clown: )

*Volume 1, Book 5, Number 278: *

*Narrated Um Hani bint Abi Talib: *

*I went to Allah’s Apostle in the year of the conquest of Mecca and found him taking a bath while Fatima was screening him. The Prophet asked, “Who is it?” I replied, “I am Um-Hani.” *

Source

^^ This is it. end of hadees
It is taken from website claiming that it is from sahih bukhari.

Now i have read it many times and what i understood is that prophet(pbuh) was taking bath and his daughter was standing as guard with a screen ( there may be no proper door to bathroom ) and there came the lady and prophet might have heard some noise and asked who is it, and she replied i am.
and then ?
End ?

Are we missing something here ?

What do you people understand from this hadees ? Is there any saying of prophet ? I am utterly confused

I should here tell something about imam bukhari (may allah be pleased with him) he spent some 24 years in researching and collecting hadees and then he compiled his collection of ‘authentic’ hadees only. Some 2000 odd hadees passed his stringent criteria from some 300,000 he collected during his research. What is so special in this particular report that it passed such a strict criteria ??

Do you seriously think this is a hadees ? with no message, no command whatsoever. Just casual enquiry !

In my opinion there could be several possibilities here …

1. There might be something more in this hadees… and it may have lost due to natural reasons , erosion, worn out pages etc in orignal few copies… and then people kept copying as it is ,believing it to be Sahih. and no addition or omision should be done.

2. There happened some tweaking in this book during the last 1200 years and stuff added or ommitted most likely shortly after it first compilation . After all no one guaranteed it saftey, unlike quran. Rest, Allah knows the best

You better do some more research on this rather than arriving on conclusions. Like u can try to get hold of a copy FULL Saheeh Bukhari and read it. Bukhari in his book has narrates the chain and at many places AFTER the Hadith describes a Fiqhi ruling based upon the Hadith. May be you will find a Fiqhi ruling and then u will understand why he narrates this Hadith.

Secondly, Bukhari describes the same Hadeeth in different chapters, under different “Masa’il” and omits parts of Hadeeth that are not relevant to that particular problem. You may find rest of Hadeeth in another chapter.

I have been following the discussion and was enjoying it, till this post where u have disappointed me, i am forced to say that this is “idiotic approach”. You come to lot of conclusions without getting even a bit of first hand knowledge. Its like the greek who saw that flame always faces upwards so they came up with conclusion that there isfire on sun and fires attarct each other. I wud rather call your approach , “*** approach”.

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

Yup i should do that. consult the book :k:

If you have an explaination, then please share it with us. I might be able to straighten my approach, and make it less idiotic

[PakistaniAbroad]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

Code these are just idle talk.. vulgar fantasies of people out to defame Islam and the noble personalities associated with it. I mean is that Islamic history is all about? carbon copying the Prophet's sanitary habits?

[Captain1]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@Code_Red

*Volume 1, Book 5, Number 278: *

*Narrated Um Hani bint Abi Talib: *

*I went to Allah’s Apostle in the year of the conquest of Mecca and found him taking a bath while Fatima was screening him. The Prophet asked, “Who is it?” I replied, “I am Um-Hani.” *

Source

^^ This is it. end of hadees
It is taken from website claiming that it is from sahih bukhari.

Now i have read it many times and what i understood is that prophet(pbuh) was taking bath and his daughter was standing as guard with a screen ( there may be no proper door to bathroom ) and there came the lady and prophet might have heard some noise and asked who is it, and she replied i am.
and then ?
End ?

Are we missing something here ?

What do you people understand from this hadees ? Is there any saying of prophet ? I am utterly confused

Did you read this from ACTUAL book? or was it online only? Can you provide scanned pages of actual book? Its pre and post pages? I have seen some ahadith similar to this but are mentioned as “delta” to a previous narration. I hope you understand “delta”.

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

^ I am looking for actual book, will confirm shortly, inshallah.

In the meantime If anyone has the book then please check it for us. Thanks

Please Note : It is quite sad that we get emotional on the topics which are totally objective and educational. If you notice my earlier post, I have not drawn any conclusions … rather asked readers to express their opionion and presented few possiblilities based on my limited understanding.

@PakistaniAbroad

Code these are just idle talk.. vulgar fantasies of people out to defame Islam and the noble personalities associated with it. I mean is that Islamic history is all about? carbon copying the Prophet’s sanitary habits?

Sorry, but i did not see any vulgarity here
Please be more objective

Let me remind you of your take on history and ‘objectivity’

You’d have to be able to provide counter arguments OR punch holes in their theories. It involves spending the time which is at times proportional to the time spent by the “opposing” side in establishing their theory. If theirs is a ‘weak’ argument, it wouldn’t take much to refute it. If it’s strong and has some basis, u’d have to work just as hard to try and find counterevidence.

BUT the important point in all this is not the fact that he was gay or not, It’s that we are able to discuss this aspect of his life freely and entertain any new discoveries and theories along the way. THAT is how IMO History should be treated. Open to discussion, not a sealed shut verdict.

Despite giving a well versed line of action, you yourself are not sticking to it.

See
Speding proportionate time ? quater of a centurey !
and yours ?
Criteria of selection ? zero tollerence for inconsistencies !
Have you studied their criteria before sweeping rejection of their research
Quality assurance ?
More than 90% of the collection is rejected

No matter how preliminary, At least I am viewing it objectively. And no matter how flawed… at least trying to present reasoning.

Your generalization lacks supporting (counter)evidence / (counter)aurguments

[Code_Red]

Re: PakistaniAbroad Sahab, please enlighten

@Captain1

Did you read this from ACTUAL book? or was it online only? Can you provide scanned pages of actual book? Its pre and post pages? I have seen some ahadith similar to this but are mentioned as “delta” to a previous narration. I hope you understand “delta”.

After consistently trying get hold of this book I have finally managed to scan the page from original book ( Bukhari )

And As promissed in my earlier post i am sharing with you folks here

After reading it in book i gather that my earlier opinion was wrong.

The hadees comes under the chapter “Baab-e-Ghusal” (bath etiquettes) and under a heading which roughly translates ’ If you have to take bath open area then hide ‘satar’ (body from navel to knee) and take a cover’

This heading explains the purpose of this narration.