I'm more confused than George Bush in a pub quiz.
Is he trying to say that it is wrong for women to wear veils? If so he is more of a knob than I thought.
Or is he saying that women should not be confined to the house? Which I agree with.
Some way Musharaf has right but i dont understand why it is a backward vieuw of the Islam.
speakign of religious-ness...now which mullah ji of MMA was caught with 2 prostitutes? :)
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*Originally posted by laeeqkhan: *
He does not have to fall so low to be their pet. Maybe he is that low!
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What's so low about it? Just because it doesn't support your oppressive view of women's rights doesn't make it "low" nor does it indicate that he is pandering to the West.
Such issues were discussed before the West intersected with Muslim nations. Now the idiots just use the debate as a way to objectify and oppress women and women's rights by calling any supporters "Westernized" and "sinful." Folks like that should be ashamed.
^^ see its this that mucks up the debate for women's rights by tieing together the oppression of women which I would guess would include acid throwing, explosion of gas stoves, karo kari, jirga ordered rapes etc with the issue of Westernisation. You alienate most people by saying its either westernisation or oppression of women. Im against "oppression" of women and Im against a headlong plunge into westernisation.
women working outside their homes is not the solution to the oppression of women. They work, sometimes more than men, in rural areas. And these are the areas where the above evils are most rife.
Regarding this particular topic I dont think criticising his wife is the most Islamic thing to do, unless you do it to his face, in private.
^ Telling women that they HAVE to be entirely covered and are not allowed to move about freely is oppressive. I'm not even talking about the physical abuse.
And no I didn't say it's either oppression or Westernization. Read carefully, hon. I said that that's how the "oppressors" paint the choices. As I said in my post, the status and nature of women's rights in Islam were discussed before Westernization entered the picture.
it doesnt matter if issues were discussed before westernization came into the picture. most debates are cast in the perspective of current world affairs, and westernization IS a very pertinent factor in determining what womens issues are raised and who argues for them. thereby anyone bringing westernization into the debate isnt necessarily an idiot, its probably very rational.
as for what you said, are you sure you're not blurring the line between those who are genuinely concerned about westernization and indulge in this debate and those who use westernization as a wedge to divide people into westernised or pardaydaar?
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Telling women that they HAVE to be entirely covered and are not allowed to move about freely is oppressive. I'm not even talking about the physical abuse.
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how about asking women to be covered to a specific extent, for example chaddar? is that 'oppressive'?
Interesting how he had to go to the west to get his message back home to pakistanis women. I dont think it was directed are the mancunians as much(sp?). Wait till he gets back. 
^
Musharraf is liberalising Pakistan too much. His concept of “moderate Islam” is TOO moderate 
And his poor wife seems terrorised by his intimidating and overpowering personality, he seems to be one of those Maula Jatt type hubbies I always feel sorry for the poor woman when I see her on TV bichari dari hui lagti hae mujh ko toh 
Even when they were walking hand in hand around the Taj Mahal the poor woman still didn’t seem relaxed to me.
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
it doesnt matter if issues were discussed before westernization came into the picture. most debates are cast in the perspective of current world affairs, and westernization IS a very pertinent factor in determining what womens issues are raised and who argues for them. thereby anyone bringing westernization into the debate isnt necessarily an idiot, its probably very rational.
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But what happens is that debate isn't even possible. Any discussion of women's rights becomes villified as Westernized and dismissed.
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as for what you said, are you sure you're not blurring the line between those who are genuinely concerned about westernization and indulge in this debate and those who use westernization as a wedge to divide people into westernised or pardaydaar?
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I don't think I understand what the genuine concern regarding westernization is all about. If you could explain that first, then I'll answer the question above.
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how about asking women to be covered to a specific extent, for example chaddar? is that 'oppressive'?
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Forcing someone to do anything is oppressive. It is different from guiding, teaching, instructing. Force is oppressive, even if we think it is "right."
speakign of religious-ness...now which mullah ji of MMA was caught with 2 prostitutes?
No way!!!!
Do tell all !
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*Originally posted by Sahar02: *
But what happens is that debate isn't even possible. Any discussion of women's rights becomes villified as Westernized and dismissed.
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im not sure who you're talking about but why cater to the lowest denominator? sure people pull all sorts of tricks in debates, and Im pretty sure the other side of the spectrum doesnt stop short either, but its best to ignore them.
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I don't think I understand what the genuine concern regarding westernization is all about. If you could explain that first, then I'll answer the question above.
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perhaps you can go through the thread I opened in the religion forum. 'conservative muslims's something'.. long title, hard to miss.
its hard for you to understand i guess, because Im supposing that you're born and bred in a western environment by Muslim parents. you grew up here, knowing the elements of this culture that are bad, you could acclimatize (sp) here and figure out what you should pick what you should discard.
the westernization Im concerned about is what hits on the home front, channeled through telivision and very young people recently returned from abroad, glorified and deified by their peers until the most visible aspects of what they do defines what is done by the rest. rave parties and nightclubs, tank tops, off the shoulder stuff, stuff that is by NO definition in any way representative of our Muslim heritage. discussions spanning three pages on pakistani miss worlds would probably have been unthinkable four years ago.
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Forcing someone to do anything is oppressive. It is different from guiding, teaching, instructing. Force is oppressive, even if we think it is "right."
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seperate debate. some norms have to be enforced. im not for 'enforcing' parda through state goons, more along the lines of self enforcement of social norms.