Pakistan using Israeli technology???

Society Military and Strategic Issues
21

**

Business is business and national security is above all the most important. However I do not like the implication that if we didnt agree with your assessment we wouldnt be "enlightened enough to see reality".
**

Precisely! It isn't about "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with what I have to say rather realizing the world of realpolitik. If people like to live in the fantasy world of thinking that by somehow reducing our military capabilities we'll be doing the Palestinians a favor, then that is dead wrong.

**
Reality is simple. The Islamic identity doesnt exist. Rather it is in tatters. At this point we can dicuss supporting muslims in all contexts, however we cannot ignore our security needs, or the needs of the nation.
**

Right, then why are you complaing about my comment. Is that not enlightened to realize that the Islamic identity does not exist. In fact in some quarters, you'd (and myself) would be tarred and feathered.
**
Would you deem myself enlightened, if i said i refuse to trade with Israel no matter what. The trade is with china of US weaponary bought from Israel. China is who we trade with. We dont give any money to Israel directly or indirectly.**

Not understanding business principles for emotional responses is niether enlightened nor logical. You can call the "backdoor" method of trading "morally" justified but Isreal is a party to this transaction. Bottom line is that discrimination in business & commerce will lead Pakistan with inferior products and capabilities, and ensuring a strong Pakistan is the goal.

22

I agree with CM and Mad Scientist, and we must never forget that Israel would never directly allow any military sales to Pakistan that would benefit Pakistan's military strength. How quickly some forget that Israel has a direct military relationship with India especially in helping it in occupied Kashmir? When our President talks about 'protecting our nuclear assets' make no doubt he also means from countries like Israel who cannot fathom the idea of a MUSLIM state having a nuclear bomb. Reading the Israeli papers and listening to Israeli politicians and ex-military men it is clear that they clearly have Pakistan in their sights just like Iran, because of it's nuclear programme. That is a reality...

23

so u have some one to deliver 'isree technology' :D .

well when it comes to ur own national interests,what i believe is ,u have to go on with out caring who is the donour of a technology ,especially a vital one like this.pakistan has not made any deal with israel on this,but they simply bought a technology or products from its most intimate and close ally ,the china.

        somebody here said pakistan is in the sight of israel and  it seems to be quite right but this can be viewed in terms of posing a potential threat to isarel.pakistan is the first muslim nation to have nuclear technology and it poses threats to both indian and israeli interests and no wonder pakistan is in the close surveillance of israel.

 we have to remember one thing that,israel does not hesitate to take pro active measures against any country and the world had seen such a move from israel in its 1967 war with egypt and its neighbours.no matter whoever it is,even pakistan will be exposed to israeli offence ,if pakistan ever found t be a great threat for israel.
24

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Precisely! It isn't about "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with what I have to say rather realizing the world of realpolitik. If people like to live in the fantasy world of thinking that by somehow reducing our military capabilities we'll be doing the Palestinians a favor, then that is dead wrong.*
[/quote]

It is absolutely all about agreeing and disagreeing. Real politik is based on national interest. Which not many can agree on. Many would see Pakistan acting like the last bastion for political Islam as national interest. You however would not agree with that.

The israeli tech is an UAV. Not something drastically needed. Great recon, but it aint an extremely important element of our military. Rather have faster and better tanks and sophisticated Air support.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Right, then why are you complaing about my comment. Is that not enlightened to realize that the Islamic identity does not exist. In fact in some quarters, you'd (and myself) would be tarred and feathered.*
[/quote]

Read your comment below. Basically you are implying that as i think with moral convinction and with my heart instead of my mind i am not being enlightened or logical. You say it yourself. That i take offense to and disagree with.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Not understanding business principles for emotional responses is niether enlightened nor logical. You can call the "backdoor" method of trading "morally" justified but Isreal is a party to this transaction. Bottom line is that discrimination in business & commerce will lead Pakistan with inferior products and capabilities, and ensuring a strong Pakistan is the goal.
[/QUOTE]
*

|Read what medic said. The tech is Israeli, however none of the money goes to Israel. Rather it goes to our good friend china. They buy what they want. American, French, Israel etc. However when we trade with them, we give the money to them and not the Israelis.

Ensuring a strong Pakistan is a goal. But hell not by hook or crook. Real politik moves away from morality. I dont. They kill muslims, i dont want pakistan trading with them or even recognizing them. Morality is the basic fabric of society and i dont agree that in business it means nothing.

Chinese products are by no standard inferior. They are just as good if not better. Some russian and french tech is also good. The Swedish Gryphon or the "Euro-jet" are supposed to be the next generation plans, we dont need to stick to Israeli or American models.

25

**
It is absolutely all about agreeing and disagreeing. Real politik is based on national interest. Which not many can agree on. Many would see Pakistan acting like the last bastion for political Islam as national interest. You however would not agree with that.
**

If people see Pakistan as the last bastion of Islam, it is not their opinion which is in error, rather it is their ignorance of world's history. Pakistan's ideology is a very much nationalist one with a religious (Islamic) backbone.

**
The israeli tech is an UAV. Not something drastically needed. Great recon, but it aint an extremely important element of our military. Rather have faster and better tanks and sophisticated Air support.
**

Fair enough. I have advocated opening up channels with Israel in terms of military and economic cooperation. I could care less if Pakistan refuse diplomatic recognition as long as out defense and commerce sectors are getting the best products available-- even if they are from Israel.
**
Read your comment below. Basically you are implying that as i think with moral convinction and with my heart instead of my mind i am not being enlightened or logical. You say it yourself. That i take offense to and disagree with.
**

Yes, indeed I am saying emotions of the heart and morality (which is in the grey zone for Israel anyway) is not enlightened or logical IN THIS case. Sorry to offend you, but the truth stands as it is. Let me ask you a few questions: If the Egyptians, the so-called "leaders" of the Arabs could recognize and open up economic, diplomatic links with Israel, why can't we? If the Jordanian monarch can visit Israel and open up links like Egypt, why cant we? Are we uber-Arabs? Or self defined protectors of the Islamic world?

Lets flip the issue: Sure we'll support the Palestinians in their struggle, so why is Arafat not supporting Kashmiris? What about the rest of the 'Muslim' Middle East (With a few exceptions) supporting India over Pakistan? What about Saddam? Assad? Khatami?

Why must we deprive ourselves from a better product (whatever it may be) from Israel when the Arabs could care less? If (God forbid) Pakistan was about to be wiped off the face of the earth, would the Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians and the like come to our aid? Fat chance! It will be our ability to give our enemy a fitting response and inflicting heavy damage on the opposing side that will make them think twice. We cannot downgrade our capabilities because of some EMOTIONAL and Morally grey zone issue like this! Anyone who would like to refute my argument please read what I have said before jumping the gun. Bring up the Palestinians and you better believe I'll bring up the Kashmiris.

**

|Read what medic said. The tech is Israeli, however none of the money goes to Israel. Rather it goes to our good friend china. They buy what they want. American, French, Israel etc. However when we trade with them, we give the money to them and not the Israelis.
**

Fine call it what you want. If you choose to ignore the 'Made in Israel' label it isn't a big deal for me, as long as we have technology.
**
Ensuring a strong Pakistan is a goal. But hell not by hook or crook. Real politik moves away from morality. I dont. They kill muslims, i dont want pakistan trading with them or even recognizing them. Morality is the basic fabric of society and i dont agree that in business it means nothing.
**

Well I share your goal of a strong Pakistan but I diverge from your views beyond that. I would fully 100% support what you said if the Arab nations had give equally vocal support to the Kasdhmiris. What the hell are Indians killing? Are the majority of Kashmiris not Muslims? do they not deserve the Muslim support? Hell, the Palestinian issue is on the news 24/7, theres a greater recognition of the Palestinian plight, but what about the Kashmiris? Who knows about their trials and tribulations? Even the Muslim world has abandoned them, so screw "morality being a basic fabric of society" and bring on the realpolitik.
**
Chinese products are by no standard inferior. They are just as good if not better. Some russian and french tech is also good. The Swedish Gryphon or the "Euro-jet" are supposed to be the next generation plans, we dont need to stick to Israeli or American models.**

I frankly dont care where our superior equipment is coming from. If it's the Israelis- fine, If its the Chinese-Fine, the Euros or whomever, I dont have issues. However to specifically ignore/boycott equipment from countries like Israel is both foolish and detrimental to our national security.

26

Doesnt really matter where we're getting it from as long as it benefits us!as far as the argument about money going to israel is concerned.....why do people drink pepsi??.....the money is ending up wit the jews.....why do ppl in pak eat KFC?.....part of the money is ending up with the israelis!
National interest should be supreme!

27

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
If people see Pakistan as the last bastion of Islam, it is not their opinion which is in error, rather it is their ignorance of world's history. Pakistan's ideology is a very much nationalist one with a religious (Islamic) backbone.*
[/quote]

This i again disagree with. You are basically imposing and implying that any opinion that is contrary to yours is wrong. The very basic of real politik is that everybody views national interest in a different manner. This can easily be seen in the various European governments during the cold war. I would say that the Pakistani ideology is inherently religious. The reason why we wanted independence? Religion? Name the only 2 countries created in the name of religion? Pakistan and Israel. Religion is the ideology. You can not say Pakistan's ideology is nationalistic, as that denotes a nation state. The muslims of India were not a nation. If they were all the Muslims would be in Pakistan.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Fair enough. I have advocated opening up channels with Israel in terms of military and economic cooperation. I could care less if Pakistan refuse diplomatic recognition as long as out defense and commerce sectors are getting the best products available-- even if they are from Israel.*
[/quote]

That is not possible. You trade, it is defacto diplomatic recognition. You have to recognize the state for any relations, military or economic. I would disagree with the assumption, that if we get the best products, our morality and political ideology be damned.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Yes, indeed I am saying emotions of the heart and morality (which is in the grey zone for Israel anyway) is not enlightened or logical IN THIS case. Sorry to offend you, but the truth stands as it is. Let me ask you a few questions: If the Egyptians, the so-called "leaders" of the Arabs could recognize and open up economic, diplomatic links with Israel, why can't we? If the Jordanian monarch can visit Israel and open up links like Egypt, why cant we? Are we uber-Arabs? Or self defined protectors of the Islamic world?
[/quote]
*

Once again an imposition of your view of what is logical or illogical. Politics is not like maths. There is never one correct answer. As for egypt and Jordan. Jordan sold out in the 1967 war., Egypt with the diplomatic relations. What the governments decide in the Arab world rarely reflects the will of the people.

The question is why cant we? Simple. Morality means something to us. The death and suffering of the Palestinians means something. Just because others do something doesnt mean it is right. We arent lemmings. The people of both Jordan and Egypt know their govt is in the wrong and i will be damned if Pakistan follows such a path.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Lets flip the issue: Sure we'll support the Palestinians in their struggle, so why is Arafat not supporting Kashmiris? What about the rest of the 'Muslim' Middle East (With a few exceptions) supporting India over Pakistan? What about Saddam? Assad? Khatami?*
[/quote]

Real politik dictates you look for the best oppurtunity for yourself. Let these countries do what they want. They arent representative of the will of the people and neither do they have a direct bearing on our own decisions. Let India do what it wants. Lets forget comparing with India, we are economically out of their league. Lets fix up our own house.

Everybody knows my view of Saddam, i think he deserves to die. Khatami is following real politik, so is Assad to an extent. We cannot keep the childish idea, if they are friends of India we cannot be friends with them. Of course you can. You look for your benefits. It would be illogical to break ties with an Islamic country because they support India on Kashmir.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Why must we deprive ourselves from a better product (whatever it may be) from Israel when the Arabs could care less? If (God forbid) Pakistan was about to be wiped off the face of the earth, would the Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians and the like come to our aid? Fat chance! It will be our ability to give our enemy a fitting response and inflicting heavy damage on the opposing side that will make them think twice. We cannot downgrade our capabilities because of some EMOTIONAL and Morally grey zone issue like this! Anyone who would like to refute my argument please read what I have said before jumping the gun. Bring up the Palestinians and you better believe I'll bring up the Kashmiris.*
[/quote]

At points, you do things because they are right. Not because you can get something out of it.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Fine call it what you want. If you choose to ignore the 'Made in Israel' label it isn't a big deal for me, as long as we have technology.*
[/quote]

No label at all. The technology was transfired. Not the actual UAV. The chinese make it, upgrade it etc. it is purely a chinese made product. It is diffusion of technology. You cant be saying that a radio made in Pakistan shoul have a "made in Japan" label on it.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Well I share your goal of a strong Pakistan but I diverge from your views beyond that. I would fully 100% support what you said if the Arab nations had give equally vocal support to the Kasdhmiris. What the hell are Indians killing? Are the majority of Kashmiris not Muslims? do they not deserve the Muslim support? Hell, the Palestinian issue is on the news 24/7, theres a greater recognition of the Palestinian plight, but what about the Kashmiris? Who knows about their trials and tribulations? Even the Muslim world has abandoned them, so screw "morality being a basic fabric of society" and bring on the realpolitik.*
[/quote]

Then why support the Kashmiri people? Wouldnt real politik dictate that we make peace with India. It has a bright future and would make a good ally. After all Pakistan and India the only time they have sided together in the UN - 3 times - stalled the entire proceedings. In the WTO again, India and Pakistan constitute enough of a force to make the US reconsider domestic regulations. There are many more examples. Wouldnt real politik then dictate we ignore Kashmir and move towards a better alternative. After all we are losing billions of dollars that could be spent on health and education due to the military build up.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
I frankly dont care where our superior equipment is coming from. If it's the Israelis- fine, If its the Chinese-Fine, the Euros or whomever, I dont have issues. However to specifically ignore/boycott equipment from countries like Israel is both foolish and detrimental to our national security.
[/QUOTE]
*

I disagree. Morality cannot and should not be compromised.

28

I have two questions for both sides.

What has been Pakistan's greatest military development/achievement in the last 30 years? The building of our nuclear deterrent. And which countries did the most to help Pakistan build this deterrent i.e. financial support in the 1970's during the era of ZAB and after.

Also, which countries have always been suspicious and openly hostile to our nuclear deterrent?

29

**
I have two questions for both sides.

What has been Pakistan's greatest military development/achievement in the last 30 years? The building of our nuclear deterrent. And which countries did the most to help Pakistan build this deterrent i.e. financial support in the 1970's during the era of ZAB and after.
**

Libya and KSA. They are not included in my list of pro-India Arab countries. We have good and strong ties with them. We have tried to help them in our capacity as well.
**
Also, which countries have always been suspicious and openly hostile to our nuclear deterrent? **

India and the rest of the world. The only reason Israel has seen Pakistan as a hostile nation is because WE made the relations hostile. We did not recognize, trade with them. We openly condemned them at times, more extremely then the Arab countries. Does Isreal have problems with Turkey, Afghanistan, or Bosnia? Nope. It is because they have been more receptive to the Isrealis. If I walk down the street and spit on a stranger will the stranger love me for it? I doubt it.

30

The rest of the world includes Israel near the top of the list believe me.

I am afraid you are somewhat mistaken by the belief that Pakistan has adopted a hostile attitude towards Israel. Can you show us any examples where Israel has demonstrated any friendliness towards Pakistan - it does take two to build a friendship.

Do Turkey, Afghanistan or Bosnia have a nuclear deterrent?

You are correct to point out the lack of support for the Kashmir cause by some of the Arab countries, but have they ever directly assisted i.e. militarily the Indian military oppression in occupied Kashmir? No.

Even though Pakistan quite rightly supports the Palestinian cause diplomatically in the international arena, have we ever militarily supported any group (Palestinian or otherwise) that is fighting Israel? No.

But Israel has a long record of supporting India militarily in their oppression of the Kashmiri people, and generally to boost India’s military superiority in the region. That is a clear fact that no one can deny. Here are some articles on this reality that you might have missed :-

India to use Israeli radars to check infiltration](http://www.dawn.com/2002/10/07/top6.htm)

The Tel Aviv connection grows](http://www.indiatogether.org/govt/military/articles/isrlbuy02.htm)

Israeli Experts In Kashmir To Assess Security Needs](http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20000922a.html)

Israeli teams training forces in Kashmir: Jane’s](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=1121905986)

Israel-India Military and Civil Trade Ties Skyrocket](http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/105/documentid/367/history/3,653,105,367)

Muslim World versus Indo-Israeli nexus and CTBT](http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/apr/muslim-world.htm)

Read the quote in that article by the Israeli PM, David Ben Gurion about Pakistan.

31

It really is interesting to read some of the Anti-Pakistan comments in the above articles - especially about the reasons for Israeli alliance with India:

32

israeli cant sell certain weapon system without the approval of
united states since it will affect regional balance of power.

33

Well Israel and India co-operate a great deal on defense specifically dealing with Kashmir.

http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/books/40pub.html#IV

There is too much to quote. Basically read the link on Military cooperation. There is too much to mention.

And we should normalize relations?

34

Anyone with an iota of business deal making knows that even if technology transfer is made, there are still royalties that are paid for exports. China is paying royalties to Israel - percentage of what Pakistan pays China. Ofcourse this profit is pure profit to Israely defense establishment.

Inadvertantly Pakistan is enabling the Israeli war against Palestines! Way to go!

35

Unless the chinese reverse engineered the technology and adapted it to their own usage, zilch in royalties then.

Other than that, Pakistan pays interest on loans from US, part of that interest probably goes to Israel as US aid too, so thats kinda that.

Pakistan has a right to defend itself and to do what it takes.

36

Fraudia, you're right - there are more than one way to support the Israelis! It's just ironic that's all!

37

the economies of the world are so inter related that same argument can be made for anything. Recall the SUV/Gas to terrorism support argument?

38

CM ji, going by the same philosphy, we should’nt be contacting the Russians either, since they are the # 1 supplier to the Indians, but we are in the process of enhancing our relations with them, so why not Isrealis?

39

salaam friends!

.....quite a "rich text" fills this forum...:)........its heartening infact...

.....as regards the weapons systems' acquisition, something thats very clear is that the end product is more important than the ways and means....and we, and for that matter any other country follows the same...there are no bilateral or multilateral ties, strategic issues, tactical measures or national interest sorta things those r considered important in these cases.........may be that sounds unethical, but we have to remember there are no ethics while something becomes a survival issue....(just as a life-long-core-de-heart-Pakistani-Muslim-old-man has to get himself across those "furungi" docs n Dushman specialists just coz they have all the expertice and equipments available for the surgery and stuff)...........these deals r sure secretive, but they r there.....

.....about the justification of any equipment and "patents", there`s nothing like that in military hardware......."because no one will re-invent the wheel"........for indigeneous developments, one never starts from zero-zero............and sure, sure, there have been military links (as regards the procurement of military equipment) of Pakistan with many countries of the world including India and Israel in past......and it is a reality lemme tell u.........but that should not bother anyone, for we have to survive them out..........we also know that India and Israel are our worst enemies.......

.....about the reverse engineering of components, its what our requirement is....:.....be it that Israeli-made UAV shot down last year near Sialkot or those Tomahawk Cruise missiles dropped-by in Baluchistan.........reverse engineering is an effort........and if no effortful effort goes waste, we have a right to mark it as ours posession....!!.........and if the same is accomplished by China, thats our good-luck too.....!!!

40

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ZulfiOKC: *

CM ji, going by the same philosphy, we should'nt be contacting the Russians either, since they are the # 1 supplier to the Indians, but we are in the process of enhancing our relations with them, so why not Isrealis?
[/QUOTE]

ZulfiOKC well what did the Russians do when the CE went there? They gave him the middle finger and said have a nice day. We fought a war against them in the 80s. We have screwed them over for nearly 50 years. All of a sudden relations are just supposed to thaw and daisys are supposed to spring out? Hell no. Nations dont forget transgressions centuries old. The Ruskies will never forget. Esp not the elitest establishment.

Enhancing relations with the Russians is stupid. They arm the Indians. Side with the Indians on all matters. We can keep cordial relations, but we shouldnt expect anything from them at all. It is stupid to expect anything in return when they revolve around Indian's little finger.