Pakistan Now a Hot Spot for IT Outsourcing

Society Business and Career
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sharjeel: *

^ Thats precisely I mean to say: Pakistanis are limited to core programming languages and nothing beyond. They'll learn a few languages and now they want to continue their life on it.
[/QUOTE]

in your previous post you were referring to their 'attitude' towards programming itself which has got nothing to do with learning other than CORE langauges

anyways..i don't know what exactly are you trying to say....students are REQUIRED to take a specific language(s) which is part of their curriculum. its not as if they have a choice. the idea is to give them the basis and solid understanding of how to program. they should be able to pick up a new language if the need arises. when you are working in the industry, it is not necessary that you will be using the same set of tools which you learned in college. those 4 years in college should have prepared you to learn new tools/languages on your own besides other things ofcourse.

in an ideal situation the curriculum should be designed keeping the current requirements/trends of the industry in mind..for example right now a lot of emphasis is being given on c++ in most of the colleges in usa (particularly for engineering)..now with c# things might change..however, the students who graduated with c++ and who are working in the industry may or may not have to learn c# depending on the needs of their company but i am sure if the need be the students would be able to pick up c#.

by the way if you have a good understanding of CORE programming languages you should easily be able to learn other languages.

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by digitalsurgeon: *

but facts state otherwise..
[/QUOTE]

I would like to see those facts.....just because you "think" its a fact doesnt become one even though everyone is entitled to have their own opinion...!!!

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sharjeel: *

^ Thats precisely I mean to say: Pakistanis are limited to core programming languages and nothing beyond. They'll learn a few languages and now they want to continue their life on it.
[/QUOTE]

why do you guys keep including the whole nation instead of some????
I m a pakistani and not only that I know 29 programming langages i also know almost all the database technology, web development, networking protocols and hardware trouble shooting....yes its all part of my job since I m a programmer reporting to a Infrastucture Manager so I have to know it all......!!!!
so there you have it!!Pakistanis are not LIMITED to anything.....!!!!

be proud of what you are instead of critisizing your own nation!!!

24

^^ :k: - I agree… when it comes to programming and other technicalities, I’ve seen some brilliant Pakistani programmers… esp. in my undergrad program in Canada, I had the opportunity to work with a couple of guys who had their B.S. from FAST - I learnt a lot from them.

The only point in bringing something up is constructive criticism… and that’s what my post above was meant to be… I mean I was proud yet a little dismayed at the same time.

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wow … you know all those languages and all database technology and even networking protocols :eek: … u sound so elite … you must know how to h4xor rite? please teach me how to h4ck, please, pitty please :halo:

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OK, let me elaborate my point.

First of all, I doing BS-CS from FAST-NU Lahore and I know FASTians very well. It goes without any doubt that graduates of FAST simply outshine everyone else in Industry. I mean there are other good institutes but if you take one whole batch of FAST and compare it with a whole batch of any other Institute you'll see a remarkable difference.

Now I won't be discussing other institutes, discussing the best will be sufficient I guess.

IT Industry is not about Computer Science, it is more about Software Engineering. You cannot confuse Software Engineering with Computer Science; Software Engineering focuses on CS as well as other disciplines including Economics, Psychology, Accounting, Management etc. No doubt our techies are best. But they are techies. They have a limited thinking, if not limited to tools then limited to technology. They are good but good enough to only to learn atmost the philosophy of techniques. Even the best ones may have a generic thinking to learn any programming language in a workshop of few hours or adapt to any tool/technology but rarely anyone learns the intrinsic skills needed for software development. They would know how to instantiate a class out of void pointer but won't know the aesthetics of placing a button which to them holds little importance. They would know how to integrate .Net with NIS domain but won't know how to deal with client. They would know how to add so many features in their product but won't know if they have any significance. They won't be able to present the hardwork they've have.

Let me conclude it in this way: I haven't met any enterpreneur who studied from a Pakistani University, stayed in Pakistan, worked in Pakistan in Software Industry and said "Look! This is my new Civic I bought out of the revenue I generated from my latest product".

27

Indeed Sharjeel, there is a "difference" in CS and SE, but its one that is but due to course of natural evolution of a discipline. The compartmentalization of CS and SE is natural in much the same way that science has formed physics, chemistry, biology etc.

Coming from an SE background, I do agree that SE is much more than computer programming, but I have to admit to the fact that in a University environment, students usually do not have the opportunity to ascertain the true meaning of software engineering. It is only once you start working that you start to get a true sense of the value of good software design by associating with a community of practice.

So, it isn't truely justified in comparing the student populations, but lets try to compare practitioners.

Secondly, we shouldn't forget that SE is an emerging and evolving discipline... in most countries, SE still does not have a professional body that governs people who call themselves software engineers... this is very unlike the other engineering disciplines where P.Eng. is a requirement to practice as an engineer. In Canada, the govt. has just recently institutionalized a governing body of software engineers... and IEEE has its own body which is quite rigorous, but adherence still remains voluntary.

Finally, I think its just a matter of time before we start to see an enterpreneurial community from our CS grads... at least we can hope so now that we have more opportunities to capitalize, and lesser reasons to seek opportunities abroad.

Ciao.

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Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sharjeel: *

Let me conclude it in this way: I haven't met any enterpreneur who studied from a Pakistani University, stayed in Pakistan, worked in Pakistan in Software Industry and said "Look! This is my new Civic I bought out of the revenue I generated from my latest product".
[/QUOTE]

well actually i have met, and there are some good quality products produced by pakiz too but still nothing comared to americans or canadians or europeans or japanese

consider this computer science got popular in pak because of the propoganda that it was easy way to make cash and get good jobs ever since that misconception has been cleared the number of people going for cs has degraded considerably, that's were the difference lies americans etc do it for the passion we do it for money and even then we suck at it.

29

hayn itni repliez :eek:

ab in ko koN parhay ??? :smiley:

lemi just say, aap saray theek keh rahay ho i agree with all of u :smiley: :k:

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Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

Sharjeel-this is going to be the third issue which you mentioned. :-) it has two sides to it: one concerns se which has already been replied to..

the other side you are talking about is the management side. well techie is supposed to be a techie..technical ppl are not suppose to have management skills. i being a to-be engineer (electrical and computer) can completely relate to this...engineers are not known for their communication skills...however, an engineering degree with good communication/management skills can be a killer combination. i am planning to go into the management side..but generally, engineers prefer to remain on the technical side.

in the industry, often you will see that the 'software' team is being managed by a non-technical person. somebody who has an mba but not a technical degree necessarily...

They won't be able to present the hardwork they've have.

not everybody is made to do that. they do what they like or are good at. i have known students who are really good in programming but won't be able to 'present' their work properly..however, that sometimes changes with more experience and if the person realizes that s/he wants to do more than technical stuff...

Let me conclude it in this way: I haven't met any enterpreneur who studied from a Pakistani University, stayed in Pakistan, worked in Pakistan in Software Industry and said "Look! This is my new Civic I bought out of the revenue I generated from my latest product".

techies are not meant to be entrepreneurs.

let me give you an example: i know of two ppl who graduated from giki (ee and cpre)..really talented ...got a job as soon as they got out of college with a software company in isl...after working over there for a while they realized that the owner of the company was selling (outsourcing) the software which they (and other programmers) wrote for $$$$$$$...

a lot of things you learn through experiences..certain things cannot be taught in college.

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Re: Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

sums it up nicely :k:
I’d go even as far as saying “most things” - Universities build foundations… its here that you learn “how to learn”. The actual learning happens out in the real world.

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Re: Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

And that is just your opinion …
one of the reasons that tech students at Uni doing solo [or even a couple] project can’t meet deadlines … that’s why most Unis are introducing SW proj. mgmt courses in CompSci/SW courses … I had to do two such courses .. one was plain MGMT and the other was related to SW. I did learn from the SW MGMT course … was useful indeed :k: … helps in real life

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the management i am talking about is at a more higher/corporate level..

as mentioned in the same post, the one which you are referring to comes under se/sw mgmt..which i did not talk about in my post

..it has two sides to it: one concerns se which has already been replied to..

34

Re: Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by heart beat: *
well techie is supposed to be a techie..technical ppl are not suppose to have management skills.
[/QUOTE]

Thats one of the majors reasons for project failures. Techies think in terms of technology. Client simply don't need if o(1) algorithm has been implemented or .Net is used. Usually all he wants is a good looking working application which caters all his requirements.

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^thats what the project manager/system analyst... is there for. a 'programmers' job is simply to code..follow the directions...ever heard the term 'code monkey' ! and a group of programmers can not work successfully work on their own without any type of supvervision.

36

give me a bunch of good programmers and i will make that project successful. ;-) what they need is good leadership.

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Re: Re: Re: OK, let me elaborate my point.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sharjeel: *

Thats one of the majors reasons for project failures. Techies think in terms of technology. Client simply don't need if o(1) algorithm has been implemented or .Net is used. Usually all he wants is a good looking working application which caters all his requirements.
[/QUOTE]

not all the programmers are down right techies....these days a lot of programmers are working as a programmer/analyst which is to communicate with a client and code the program...all done with one person instead of 2 people.....and about managment these days all the course outlines I have seen for masters in information systems (including my own) has managment classes and since I have taken these classes we well they are pretty good when it comes to managment....

38

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by heart beat: *
give me a bunch of good programmers and i will make that project successful. ;-) what they need is good leadership.
[/QUOTE]

May be true for small scale development but once you step into enterprise development arena this approach might have some serious issues to deal with ....

Today the time frames for ROIs have been slashed to 1/3 or 1/4 of what they used to be and you need people who are not just developers but are also “business aware” if not “business experts”… you need people who are more than just coders, you need owners and owners cannot be just coders and owners who don't just own what they code but are responsible for the success of the project...

Agile methodologies are big proponent of this kind of approach and they are proving to be very successful in some areas but they have some issues as well when stepping into very traditional and structured environments like DoD and aviation… but even these institutions are using Agile approach is some shape or form…

39

being from Pakistan and planning to return their inshallah soon...i think that this is good news...I hope the finance and banking industry floursih too :)

40

Very interesting article, Irem. Thanks for posting. One of my cousins setup a software production center in Lahore before Musharaf came. There were raids around the country after his taking power to fight corruption. One of the places raided was his software house. 25 people were arrested. One was released. He called back to relay the news. My cousin was shocked. Most of the people there were caught for dealing in prostitution. He let this one guy go saying that when the folks were being paid twice the market rate why did they have to lower themselves to such lows to be involved in prostitution?

The production house was closed after this event and taken to India. My cousin's company had to pay huge project delay penalties to their clients. Well, he helped another company setup a call center in Lahore which has continued to exist for the last few years. One comment I have heard from there is that they don't like to hire U.S. graduates for the most part................... they know less then Pakistani counterparts. This is the same in India where, comparatively, U.S. or westerners know less then Indians. They have gotten big, too big, recently and have begun, themselves, to find "offshoring" opportunities in South America, China and Eastern Europe. Their payscales are coming up due to fierce competition and poaching. Pakistan is well placed. Pakistan was always a gold mine. The gov't, and the countless unpaRh who run the nation, are just wrecking havoc on our people.

One of my cousin's cousin, who is in Foreign Service, said that Musharaf, in one of the meetings, said that I think we should give more prominence to Computer Science........? Well, at least, dair aind durust aind. I heard of this last year and remember being stunned..... we are just now waking up to the idea that we should look towards Computer Science as a viable sector to invest in for our country's future and global competition?

But the future is, yet, brighter for Pakistan now, now that the politicians have to be "educated". A friend of mine was in a mehfil long time ago where a waDera told him that he was standing for the "big" elections. After some time it became clear that he was going to stand in the National elections. My friend said that ..."bhai, when we have such crap standing up for elections what will happen to our country. The waDera didn't even know the proper name of the elections he was talking about. I am sure this waDera would win if he stood up for election due to the money he can spend but what if he gets an important ministry.... then what? This guy, or his types, can't even think properly to make any decisions important enough for the country." This was about nine years ago.

Let's hope for the best..... for Pakistanis are one of the best. Sure there are educational and other "unprofessional" limitations but those willing to place/migrate some of their work to Pakistan will also introduce habits and practices that will benefit in the long term.

Let's hope for the best...