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*Originally posted by karina: *
RF, you're getting emotional about ethnicity and defending faith.
The article is not about war with India or anyone else, it's about Pakistan and where it's heading.
Bush say's, ''It is the practice of democracy that makes a nation ready for democracy.''
Being from a democratic country (pls this thread is not about India's 'failed democracy' as so many here put it) I cannot fathom how anyone in the region would not want a similar set up. Even Bangladesh seems to have a grip on democratic values.
I am not commenting on what the writer says about Pashtuns or mullahs taking over, I am curious how many Pakistanis believe in the idealistic thought 'there is no substitute for democracy'.
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Karina, how would you feel if I essentially called India backward craphole that will be broken up into many pieces? Not too well I believe? If some half baked speculator says something like that for India..I'll defend it just like I defended Pakistan. There are Islamic writers who call the US "the Great Satan" or the cesspool of immorality and worst in human values, is that a correct statement? No, because all of these arguments are based on biased extremist viewpoints. Don't forget that there are American extremists just like there are Islamist or Indian ones. If I become biased and write an article on India, I can pretty much say the same thing about India's problems or if I want to stretch the truth, I can make related arguments for the US as well.
Democracy is a great institution, one that is valued throughout the world. However if a nation has repeatedly failed in that system, what do we do? We must look for alternatives that LEAD to democracy. If the choice is presented for an Authoritarian regime that governs well with the support of the masses, or a centralized corrupt democracy that is controlled by the puppet masters, which one would you choose?
Democracy is definately workable in Pakistan, however the culture of corruption must vanquished and the might of the judiciary must be fully restored before any new experiments with Democracy commence.
RF: Why are you so angry? Calm down take a deep breath. Chill. There was nothing wrong with the article it was quite a subjective article merely stating facts (based on people he spoke with). I BTW did validate what the author stated and Barry Bearak is quite accurate in capturing the curent affairs in Pakistan.
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Kashif, I am not angry, just offended. If you think that this article is a model of subjectivity, then you Sir need to go out in the world and read some real books. Writing a biased article doesnt make it right. He interviewed biased individuals that come with their own agendas. In a similar analogy, if I, as a Pakistani reporter, write an article on the mayhem of Washington DC or another decaying urban area, along with interviews with some people like David Duke, Al Sharpton and Jerry Falwell and then print it in Dawn, will my article be true? Yes, ofcourse. However it will never be accurate because of the biases and limited perspectives.
You are nothing but an American stooge if you believe in this articles rubbish.
Anyone remember Robert Kaplan from Atlantic Monthly? Calling for the breakup of Pakistan..Well that joker was cowering under pressure at a Yale seminar due to gross inaccuracies and outright lies. Same tune, different author.
This is also one of the reasons I was disappointed to not find a single CBM b/w India Pakistan in the field of education. We have one of your Indian professors (C.P. Mohan from J.L. nehru Uni) in the country nowadays and he looks like a very reasonable man. I dont know why our govts don't take steps to exchange teachers like him, if not studetns.
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Excuse my ignorance - what is a CBM?
I didn't know JNU prof was teaching in Pakistan? Which univerisity is this?
Karina, how would you feel if I essentially called India backward craphole that will be broken up into many pieces? Not too well I believe? If some half baked speculator says something like that for India..I'll defend it just like I defended Pakistan.<<
RF- trust me quite a few people have said that about India. 10 yrs back India was a fragmented country with a north-south divide and a corrupt Congress who believed in divide and rule. Every Indian I knew talked with despair and trepidation that we would indeed be broken up one day. Today no one says such a thing. Point is unless you accept the worst-case scenario you cannot look for an escape route. Thanks for saying you'd defend India, in a way I'm doing the same. Not by attacking the writer, but by being concerned about democracy in your country. Our media has been quite open in saying that the best thing that can happen to India is to have a neighbor that is a thriving democracy and economically prosperous. Let's say this is thus a selfish concern.
Democracy is a great institution, one that is valued throughout the world. However if a nation has repeatedly failed in that system, what do we do? We must look for alternatives that LEAD to democracy. If the choice is presented for an Authoritarian regime that governs well with the support of the masses, or a centralized corrupt democracy that is controlled by the puppet masters, which one would you choose?<<
I'd choose the democracy. The danger is that authoritarian rule is not answerable to populace - it just pretends it is, but it isn't. You might have 20 yrs of corruption with democracy, but at least there is hope that the 21st yr will bring a clean-ish govt. In the subcontinent that is all we can hope for.
Democracy is definately workable in Pakistan, however the culture of corruption must vanquished and the might of the judiciary must be fully restored before any new experiments with Democracy commence.<<
I fear it's the chicken and egg theory. Judiciary can never be fearless unless it is backed by democracy. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Some parts of this article ring true to me, while other parts are a case of misreading by the author to the complexity of Pakistan. While something’s never change in Pakistan, other things change almost every day.
Only 10-12 yrs ago if you would have asked me about the situation in Pakistan, I would have told you in complete seriousness that I want to kill every Punjabi and Pushtun in Karachi and rest of Sindh and drive them back to their own country. Today, having grown older and realized some of my past jazbati-ness, I would never say anything so stupid. I now consider anyone who cares for Karachi to be a Karachitte.
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*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Some parts of this article ring true to me, while other parts are a case of misreading by the author to the complexity of Pakistan. While something’s never change in Pakistan, other things change almost every day.
Only 10-12 yrs ago if you would have asked me about the situation in Pakistan, I would have told you in complete seriousness that I want to kill every Punjabi and Pushtun in Karachi and rest of Sindh and drive them back to their own country. Today, having grown older and realized some of my past jazbati-ness, I would never say anything so stupid. I now consider anyone who cares for Karachi to be a Karachitte.
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Imdad, that is very heartening to hear... Being born in Karachi and lived in Punjab, the hatred that existed b/w the two was always a turn off for me.
Pakistan has many faults. But seriously people love over dramtizing about Pakistan. The reasons are mainly ideological. If an state created in the name of religion in this case Islam prove to be a viable and functioning state, it gives other nations which are of startegic importance to many nations the desire to follow in a similar fashion.
Education and feudalism seem to be the main sources of concern. What i actually find extremely frightening is this whole system of provincialism or the desire to group people within a country. I am pathan or i am balochi and follow up on this groupings by dehumanizing the other rival group.
The concept of unity is being eroded with every step people take backwards towards their province or village. This of course has spread through to sectarian violence and even politics. Heck people these days ask you what political party you belong to before they ask your name. It is pathetic.
RF, Why bring in India into the picture? For once cant you answer something without India bashing, or is it that Pakistan cannot be understood without reference to India?
Anyway, my few bits....
The article was quite subjective, and apart from the usual fears from whiteman country, the underlying issues are still development and education, and unfortunately very few democracies in the develping world have had the leaders who have made democarcy successful.
In this respect, my personal feeling is that for countries like Pakistan, democracy will have to borrow from the will of the people and mutate in order to survive...but TINA...
I didn't know JNU prof was teaching in Pakistan? Which univerisity is this?
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CBM = Confidence Building Measures.
CP Mohan is not teaching anyone here. He's probably on track II diplomacy tour. I've seen him on TV for the past week or so but he says he isn't here on Govt.'s behalf and has not official agenda. All hallmarks of track II/III.
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*Originally posted by Spock: *
Being born in Karachi and lived in Punjab, the hatred that existed b/w the two was always a turn off for me.
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Sorry if it is a bit off topic, but why was there hatred between the two?
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Democracy? what is that? Does it mean Benazir-cracy or Nawaz-cracy then "NO", even though people will still vote for them **as there is no provision on "ballot paper" to write name of person they want.*
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Please don't take it the wrong way, I don't mean to be rude, but your statement implies that the people know how to write? I apologise if you mean only people that can read or write be allowed to vote.
gupta..distribution of power, quota system for education and jobs, you know the usual roots of problems. politicians had really utilized the issues to divide and conquer for their own power. Things actually got very ugly during zia's regime and then during BB's tenure..they slowly stabilised in the mid 90's
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
gupta..distribution of power, quota system for education and jobs, you know the usual roots of problems. politicians had really utilized the issues to divide and conquer for their own power. Things actually got very ugly during zia's regime and then during BB's tenure..they slowly stabilised in the mid 90's
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Fraudia, you make an interesting point, and it merits a thread of its own to discuss in more detail. It appears Pakistan has its provincial / local nationalist issues (call it what you will), and we have our caste system. Both of which have done nothing but hamper the economical growth of our nations.
However, India seems to be coming out of this backward attitude, whereas Pakistan is very slow in the uptake of merit-based system. Maybe political stability in Pakistan, say for 10 to 15 years, might help. India, on the other hand, has enjoyed this for a number of years and beginning to reap the rewards (albeit slower than expected).
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*Originally posted by Toddytapper: *
RF, Why bring in India into the picture? For once cant you answer something without India bashing, or is it that Pakistan cannot be understood without reference to India?
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Where was the India bashing? I am saying how Pakistan used to be a thorn on the side for India, now the US to fears it's potential. Your the first Indian to see this as India bashing. I was basically saying that if one wanted to, they could portray India or even the US negatively in an article.
Every country has many problems, maybe if we all looked in our backyards before bashing other nations, tensions would be lowered.