[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
ZulfiOKC
Muslims have a duty to live their lives according to islam and to reject non-Islamic ideas which come from the west.
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And you are telling me this because????
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Salaams to the muslims and hi to the non-muslims
Spock
As i mentioned we muslims including you want the complete implementation of Islam and not a few laws only.
Islamabad
This is just one evil, many more evils exist in pakistan e.g prostitution, alcohol and ruling by non-Islam to name a few.
Mr Xtreme
Allah swt revealed laws which are applicable in any time and place and therefore very realistic.
shawaiz
Think twice before wishing implementation of non-islam because Allah will question you on day of judgement, why did you not wish for implementation of Islam.
Mr fraudia
i agree its just to win favour with some people and win votes.
ZulfiOKC
Muslims have a duty to live their lives according to islam and to reject non-Islamic ideas which come from the west.
Bhadsha
Pakistan was established in the name of Islam and the people are muslim and therefore Islam should be implemented. The cause of unemployment and poverty is not Islam but the western systems which are implemented.
Zabardast
Whats needed is Sharia not more people making up laws from their mind.
[/QUOTE]
The problem is that you don't know Sharia, Bin Ladin, Blair and Bush don't know the Sharia...Saudi Kings don't know the Sharia...Musharraf does not know the Sharia...in general, 98% of muslims don't know the Sharia...Taliban don't know the Sharia...Mullahs all over the world don't know the Sharia...even Shaitan does not know the Sharia...I can guarantee you, all of those people even can't read Al-Quran...let alone understanding and implementing it...I think I am done!
PS: I would advise you, go first read Al-Quran in the language you best have command over... and read it little by little...because it appears to be the most difficult book to understand and swallow in these times...when you have done that...I may proceed with a little talk of Sharia...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Bhadsha
Pakistan was established in the name of Islam and the people are muslim and therefore Islam should be implemented. The cause of unemployment and poverty is not Islam but the western systems which are implemented.
[/QUOTE]
I always thought Pakistan was established so muslims can live their lives based on their faith. i did not see anything in quaid's words that it was going to be a theocracy of some sort.
as i said it was meant to be a place where muslims (and others) "can" live their lives based on their faith. I did not get anywhere that it meant that muslims "Must" live their lives based on teh faith and that it will become a form of govt.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the greatest leader for the Muslims of Sub-Continent. That is why he is called Quaid e Azam. However, he was a human being and not a prophet who would recive devine instructions or revelations. Yes I respect the quaid from the depths of my heart, but as a human even he was not free from mistakes. So we follow the Quran first, and Quaid later. We are Muslims first and Pakistanis later! This is the essence of the Two Nation Theory!
Pakistan was created on the name of Islam. What makes us distinct from Hindus in India? Its our own laws, manners, culture and even the language (i am not talking about the street language). We as Muslims as supposed to lead our lives in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. Pakistan is moving towards an Islamic country, but it still isn't.
Doesen't the Quran say (especially for those who are telling us to read Quran in our language and understand it , they need to understand it) that, "Enter Islam completely" "Udkhilo fisilme kaafa" Besides that there are many places in the Quran where it is mentioned that those who do not judge by the law which Allah has revealed are zalimoon, at another place, kafiroon.
So what stops us from not implementing the law of Allah (the shariah). There are many sick minded people who think that Shariah is not understood or that it is not applicable today. Yes it is applicable for all times to come! "Fi quloobihim maradhun fazad Allah u maradha" "They have a disease in their hearts and Allah has increased it."
Everything is very clear for the seekers of guidance! Only if you make an effort and search you will by the Grace of Allah find answers. those who think that Islamic punishments are harsh, then Allah says in the Quran: "Alhayat fil qisas" There is life in Qisas.
Somebody in this thread has said that aren't Turkey, Egypt and other countries ISlamic? My answer is that they are not Islamic! Even we are not truly Islamic. What to talk of Turkey, where you are not allowed a job or kicked out of an institution if you wear hijaab (the height of intolerance).
It is true that there are many problems in Pakistan, such as prostitution or or film industry, or adulteration in food (one who cheats is not amongst us), poverty etc... This doesen't mean fashion shows be allowed because other problems are not being tackled. It sure is hypocrecy to just focus on one thing and leave the rest, but if we just look at one thing, than yes it is a good measure to ban fashion shows!
Fashion shows are truly a disgrace for our nation. Why do women have to parade in front of non-Mehrams just to show clothes? IS this respect for women? I am sure nobody would like his sister to do that. This is not being progressive. Actually this is degradation of values!
Muslim women in West are asking for their rights to wear hijaab, and in Islamic Republic of Pakistan they are parading semi naked in front of spectators... What a shame!!!!
May Allah guide us all.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Bhadsha
Pakistan was established in the name of Islam and the people are muslim and therefore Islam should be implemented. The cause of unemployment and poverty is not Islam but the western systems which are implemented.
[/QUOTE]
Pakistan is an islamic state, but not a theocratic state, nor should it ever become one. Does Islam forbid women from doing fashions, i have never heard of that before. Your second sentence is interesting, and i was hoping perhaps you could give a little more explanation, it would certainly help my knowledge base.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *
Pakistan is an islamic state, but not a theocratic state, nor should it ever become one. Does Islam forbid women from doing fashions, i have never heard of that before. Your second sentence is interesting, and i was hoping perhaps you could give a little more explanation, it would certainly help my knowledge base.
[/QUOTE]
Mr Badsha! Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, it is trying to be an Islamic state and it will be an Islamic state inshaAllah! That was what it was created for. Not for disgracing women through fashion shows! If it has nothing to do with Islam, than you are more than welcome to settle in India, which is a seemingly secular state.
Our leaders and forefathers struggled to get Pakistan on the basis of Islam and a separate identity. That separate identity is only through Islam and its implementation.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Mr Badsha! Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, it is trying to be an Islamic state and it will be an Islamic state inshaAllah! That was what it was created for. Not for disgracing women through fashion shows! If it has nothing to do with Islam, than you are more than welcome to settle in India, which is a seemingly secular state.
Our leaders and forefathers struggled to get Pakistan on the basis of Islam and a separate identity. That separate identity is only through Islam and its implementation.
[/QUOTE]
You are wrong. Pakistan was created so that Muslims of the Sub-Continent could practice their faith freely and live their lives according to Islamic values. Their is a difference between this and creating a country in the name of a religion. It is because of this that the mullahs never pushed for a Pakistan and only the modern and progressive Muslims (QA, Iqbal, etc.) demanded one. The mullahs thought that whether there is a Pakistan or not it doesn't matter. They never understood what freedom and choice is all about (Just look at India right now). When did QA say that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. No country is created in the name of a religion. If that was the case then the world would consist of countries by the name of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. QA wanted a secular progressive Pakistan. Don't twist these ideas on this board.
Back to banning fashion shows. Boy, this keeps coming on this board and always the regular mullahs show up trying to preach to us Sharia and what not. Listen, Jamali said this because he is a coward. Going after the group of people in Pakistan that are most repressed (women) and trying to take away the choice these women make is easy for him. In a society where women are second class citizens, how can this be termed as promoting women causes. I have seen Pakistani fashion shows and anybody saying they are a parade of nudity probably never saw a naked women before.
Now let me tell you what a brave leader would have done. He would have given women the power of choice. Women are not stupid beings. They are just as intelligent as men. If a woman wants to wear a hijab or not, it is her choice. That my friends is freedom. Most of you mullahs on this board have that chioce and take it for granted, but you should realize that women in Pakistan do not have that choice and freedom.
If women were parading naked in these fashion shows than any mother or wife or sister would not go to these events. Educated and respectful women would not participate in these events. Banning these events only proves that the mullah influenced government cannot even stand this small group of women enjoying their freedom.
I have never heard a mullah ever say that a man and woman are equal. That women have the same rights to life, freedom and choices as a man. Until that happens, a mullah to me is just a racist and backward thinking person who likes to force their ideas on others but not impress others with their own behaviour.
The mullahs need to first try to live with other mullahs (they are killing each other and others with them). Leave the women alone. They are 50% of Pakistan and if educated properly can think for themselves and do the right thing. You can count on that.
^ ^: ^^^You know what the ideals of Iqbal were? You are just speaking on baseless arguments.
"Juda ho deen se siyasat to reh jaati hai changazi"
This means that religion is implemented by the state and it is part of it. This is what Iqbal thought of. Regarding the practice of religion freely, don't Indian Muslims practice their faith freely? They live under a secular constitution. I ask an educated and sensible person like you, why did we create Pakistan? So that people practice their faith freely? You can practice your faith freely even in India. Even a child would understand that surely the reason of creation of Pakistan was to implement Islam.
The Quaid said: Pakistan will be a laboratory of Islam. What is a laboratory? It is a place where laws are tested. So Pakistan is a place where the laws will be tested and implemented according to the demands of this time, in the light of Shariah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by laeeqkhan: *
Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the greatest leader for the Muslims of Sub-Continent. That is why he is called Quaid e Azam. However, he was a human being and not a prophet who would recive devine instructions or revelations. Yes I respect the quaid from the depths of my heart, but as a human even he was not free from mistakes. So we follow the Quran first, and Quaid later. We are Muslims first and Pakistanis later! This is the essence of the Two Nation Theory!
Pakistan was created on the name of Islam. What makes us distinct from Hindus in India? Its our own laws, manners, culture and even the language (i am not talking about the street language). We as Muslims as supposed to lead our lives in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. Pakistan is moving towards an Islamic country, but it still isn't.
Doesen't the Quran say (especially for those who are telling us to read Quran in our language and understand it , they need to understand it) that, "Enter Islam completely" "Udkhilo fisilme kaafa" Besides that there are many places in the Quran where it is mentioned that those who do not judge by the law which Allah has revealed are zalimoon, at another place, kafiroon.
So what stops us from not implementing the law of Allah (the shariah). There are many sick minded people who think that Shariah is not understood or that it is not applicable today. Yes it is applicable for all times to come! "Fi quloobihim maradhun fazad Allah u maradha" "They have a disease in their hearts and Allah has increased it."
Everything is very clear for the seekers of guidance! Only if you make an effort and search you will by the Grace of Allah find answers. those who think that Islamic punishments are harsh, then Allah says in the Quran: "Alhayat fil qisas" There is life in Qisas.
Somebody in this thread has said that aren't Turkey, Egypt and other countries ISlamic? My answer is that they are not Islamic! Even we are not truly Islamic. What to talk of Turkey, where you are not allowed a job or kicked out of an institution if you wear hijaab (the height of intolerance).
It is true that there are many problems in Pakistan, such as prostitution or or film industry, or adulteration in food (one who cheats is not amongst us), poverty etc... This doesen't mean fashion shows be allowed because other problems are not being tackled. It sure is hypocrecy to just focus on one thing and leave the rest, but if we just look at one thing, than yes it is a good measure to ban fashion shows!
Fashion shows are truly a disgrace for our nation. Why do women have to parade in front of non-Mehrams just to show clothes? IS this respect for women? I am sure nobody would like his sister to do that. This is not being progressive. Actually this is degradation of values!
Muslim women in West are asking for their rights to wear hijaab, and in Islamic Republic of Pakistan they are parading semi naked in front of spectators... What a shame!!!!
May Allah guide us all.
[/QUOTE]
Very well said. May Allah guide all.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Mr Badsha! Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, it is trying to be an Islamic state and it will be an Islamic state inshaAllah! That was what it was created for. Not for disgracing women through fashion shows! If it has nothing to do with Islam, than you are more than welcome to settle in India, which is a seemingly secular state.
Our leaders and forefathers struggled to get Pakistan on the basis of Islam and a separate identity. That separate identity is only through Islam and its implementation.
[/QUOTE]
I never said I wanted Pakistan to be a kafir state if that is what you are persuming. Islam at its creation was a very progressive and modern religion. It allowed women to freely work, to inheret, and if you actually read about the prophets life you will see that his wives had a say. They were considered equals. The Prophet was a calm, rational and most importantly a caring individual. Who spread Islam on the basis of how he lived, and his good nature to others. And that is What Islam to me means. Certainly you have a right to your views, and i hope that you would allow others who really struggled for Pakistan to have a right to theres. By the way, look at the pictures of those who gave there lives for pakistan, how many are firebrand mullahs, i don't see any. What about Sir Syed, who originally thought of this idea wasn;t he labbled a kafir since mullahs at the time considered education a mode for kafirism, oh and even Illama Iqbal, i forgot the poem but after he wrote it the Mullahs were out on the streat crying for his blood. Rather then telling me where to live, whose elders since its inception have been members of the Muslim league, and whose family members in one way or another participated in all of Pakistan's wars. why don't you leave, and live amongst your firebrad deobandi sects in India, who labeled it Jihad to fight against Pakistan for indian muslims. And take that diesel sniffing idiot fazlur rehman with you.
PAkistan was made in name islam that is very clear i don't know why people arguing with semantics.
Using words like modern and women allowed to work. Why people using these words are you saying islam is not for all times are you saying islam does'nt allow women to work.
People should stop getting one or two examples and labelling all muslims and islam as backwards and bad.
Instead people should stop wasting there times attacking islam and look at real problem and why there are problems in places like pakistan. And pointing the finger at islam is unfair because islam is not the law being enforced in pakistan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
You know what the ideals of Iqbal were? You are just speaking on baseless arguments.
"Juda ho deen se siyasat to reh jaati hai changazi"
[/QUOTE]
This translates to, "If your faith and politics are separated then what is left is law of the jungle". So how does this apply to what I said? Your faith tells you what is right and wrong. When have I ever said that Pakistan should not have laws that are not in accordance with Islamic teachings?
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This means that religion is implemented by the state and it is part of it. This is what Iqbal thought of.
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No, this means that the people running the state will create laws based on religion. They are not in the business of spreading a religion and forcing it on people with other beliefs. Iqbal never told Muslims to go out there are force Islam on the Hindus and Christians.
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Regarding the practice of religion freely, don't Indian Muslims practice their faith freely? They live under a secular constitution. I ask an educated and sensible person like you, why did we create Pakistan? So that people practice their faith freely? You can practice your faith freely even in India.
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Can they really practice their religion freely? Are their mosques and lives protected by the Indian government? Is justice given to them when they are killed because of who they are? India might call themselves secular, but they are really run by Hindu mullahs who want to enforce Hinduism onto India. Kind of what you want to happen in Pakistan. QA and Iqbal feared exactly what is happening to the Muslims in India right now and hence worked for a Pakistan.
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Even a child would understand that surely the reason of creation of Pakistan was to implement Islam.
[/Quote]
I have never understood what you mean by implement Islam? If you mean laws in Pakistan should be in accordance with Islamic teachings, then I can understand that. Otherwise what Islam do you want to implement in Pakistan. Are you saying that the 97% of people in Pakistan who call themselves Muslims are not really Muslims? Or are you saying that your interpretation of Islam is what everyone in Pakistan should follow?
[Quote]
The Quaid said: Pakistan will be a laboratory of Islam. What is a laboratory? It is a place where laws are tested. So Pakistan is a place where the laws will be tested and implemented according to the demands of this time, in the light of Shariah.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, a laboratory is a place where things are tested. But it is also a place where new ideas are thought of and old methods updated to reflect new thinking. Can't agree more with QA there.:)
Do you think the mullahs will allow such a laboratory. They want to implement a way of life practiced in the 7th century. Do you want to live in a taliban run Pakistan? I don't.
BTW, since this thread is about women and fashion shows. What will a woman's role be in your Pakistan? Will she ever become a PM? Will she be allowed to get Phd's and teach men? Become a doctor and perform surgeries on men or become a pilot or engineer or will she be allowed to do sports and represent Pakistan in the olympics? Will she be allowed to become president of political parties like for say JI or JUI?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xguru: *
This translates to, "If your faith and politics are separated then what is left is law of the jungle". So how does this apply to what I said? Your faith tells you what is right and wrong. When have I ever said that Pakistan should not have laws that are not in accordance with Islamic teachings?
No, this means that the people running the state will create laws based on religion. They are not in the business of spreading a religion and forcing it on people with other beliefs. Iqbal never told Muslims to go out there are force Islam on the Hindus and Christians.
Can they really practice their religion freely? Are their mosques and lives protected by the Indian government? Is justice given to them when they are killed because of who they are? India might call themselves secular, but they are really run by Hindu mullahs who want to enforce Hinduism onto India. Kind of what you want to happen in Pakistan. QA and Iqbal feared exactly what is happening to the Muslims in India right now and hence worked for a Pakistan.
I have never understood what you mean by implement Islam? If you mean laws in Pakistan should be in accordance with Islamic teachings, then I can understand that. Otherwise what Islam do you want to implement in Pakistan. Are you saying that the 97% of people in Pakistan who call themselves Muslims are not really Muslims? Or are you saying that your interpretation of Islam is what everyone in Pakistan should follow?
Yes, a laboratory is a place where things are tested. But it is also a place where new ideas are thought of and old methods updated to reflect new thinking. Can't agree more with QA there.:)
Do you think the mullahs will allow such a laboratory. They want to implement a way of life practiced in the 7th century. Do you want to live in a taliban run Pakistan? I don't.
BTW, since this thread is about women and fashion shows. What will a woman's role be in your Pakistan? Will she ever become a PM? Will she be allowed to get Phd's and teach men? Become a doctor and perform surgeries on men or become a pilot or engineer or will she be allowed to do sports and represent Pakistan in the olympics? Will she be allowed to become president of political parties like for say JI or JUI?
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The Pakistan which would be truly Islamic, would not have honour killings! True Islamic Republic of Pakistan would have equal justice for all! True Islamic Republic of Pakistan would have educated people who have deep knowledge of Islam as Imamas and scholars, not mullhas from madrassahs. Has anybody ever thought that detailed Islamic education is important, therefore it should also be provided in schools. There was a gap and madrassahs tried to fill it. So the result is in front of us. We have a polarised Pakistan in which either the madrassah mullhas have no sense of implementation of the laws of Quran, on the other hand, we have these main stream institutions which do not edcate real Islam.
Men and women are equal but with different roles. When a man can take care of the leadership job for the country, than why do women have to jump in? Women can be leaders in their own affairs. There is a Sahih hadith which prohibits women from being the head of a state. Women have some limitations (child bearing etc.), therefore it would be wise for men to take care of the President job.
In a true Islamic republic, women would be doctors, engineers, and designers, architects, teachers, pilots and whatever they want, as long as they are following what the Quran and Sunnah have ordained for them. Men would also do what the Quran and Sunnah ordain. Men would not be allowed to open bars and clubs and sell wine, on the other hand women would not be doing fashion shows. Do you have any idea of a modest women? Who is our example? Study the life of Khadija, Ayesha, Fatima.... Khadija was a great business women. What was her role in society. How did Ayesha (ra) dress up? What role did she play in the society? I hope Allah guides you and me and open our eyes and heart to the real guidance.
These little fashion shows are no threat to Islam in Pakistan. However, these sectarian killings, fundamentalism etc, these are the things that are a big threat, but no, the mollahs love such things, so they wont dare bring that up, but they do need an alternative to rant about, so we have these fashion shows.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
The Pakistan which would be truly Islamic, would not have honour killings! True Islamic Republic of Pakistan would have equal justice for all! True Islamic Republic of Pakistan would have educated people who have deep knowledge of Islam as Imamas and scholars, not mullhas from madrassahs. Has anybody ever thought that detailed Islamic education is important, therefore it should also be provided in schools. There was a gap and madrassahs tried to fill it. So the result is in front of us. We have a polarised Pakistan in which either the madrassah mullhas have no sense of implementation of the laws of Quran, on the other hand, we have these main stream institutions which do not edcate real Islam.
[/QUOTE]
I was taught Islamiat in every class growing up in Pakistan. I believe it is taught in every government run school and most private schools. Yet, I do not see this helping solve the above problems. I think Pakistani male-dominated culture is to blame. You can teach somebody all the Islam you want, but as long as women are absent from this process and not integrated into every sphere of life, their status and fortunes in society will not change.
[Quote]
Men and women are equal but with different roles. When a man can take care of the leadership job for the country, than why do women have to jump in? Women can be leaders in their own affairs. There is a Sahih hadith which prohibits women from being the head of a state. Women have some limitations (child bearing etc.), therefore it would be wise for men to take care of the President job.
[/Quote]
I would disagree. Other than physical make-up (males and females), there is no difference. Given the same opportunities and training, women can do any modern day job that a man can do. Also, child bearing is not a limitation. It is a gift that God has blessed to women. I know many women who are mothers and capable of doing anything I am capable of doing. This is the 21st century, and people use tools and their brains to do most jobs.
[Quote]
In a true Islamic republic, women would be doctors, engineers, and designers, architects, teachers, pilots and whatever they want, as long as they are following what the Quran and Sunnah have ordained for them. Men would also do what the Quran and Sunnah ordain. Men would not be allowed to open bars and clubs and sell wine, on the other hand women would not be doing fashion shows. Do you have any idea of a modest women? Who is our example? Study the life of Khadija, Ayesha, Fatima.... Khadija was a great business women. What was her role in society. How did Ayesha (ra) dress up? What role did she play in the society? I hope Allah guides you and me and open our eyes and heart to the real guidance.
[/QUOTE]
Glad to know that in a "true" Islamic republic , women would be allowed to become all that. Yet when I see the people professing that they are implementing true Islam, none of the above things are mentioned. I hope your true Islam is different from that of the taliban or Khomeni or the numerous maulanas of JI, JUI, etc.
Attitudes towards women must change in Pakistan. Do you know most parents in Pakistan send their daughters to school just so that they can marry her to an educated man. The most important role for most Pakistani women today is to prepare themselves for marriage and bear children. How many Pakistani women do you know who were encouraged by their parents to have a career and contribute to society. The examples are very few.
:k: Could not have said it better myself.
Their are two clear historical facts:-
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Our founders wanted an Islamic state i.e. where Muslims could live their lives according to their faith, but in no way did they ever want it to be a theocratic state, ruled by mullahs. In fact if one looks at the Quaid’s words he said we should live according the Qu’ran and Sunnah but he quite clearly castigated the idea of rule by clerics.
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The clerics and mullah parties, especially the Deobandi movement (i.e. those that make up Maulana Diesel’s JUI lot) and the Jamiat-i-Islami were actually against the creation of Pakistan, and some of them called our Quaid a ‘kaffir’.