Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article

Bhai, aap ko saaj atnaa karwa kewn lagtaa hay? You have given the credit of performance on rebasing, is it not sad? :slight_smile:

Facts are much different. Actually Reza has underestimated some figures :). Reality is much better and re-basing has nothing to do with it. Leave the figures for 8 years, between 1999-2007. GDP has more than doubled even after the year re-basing was done, or even in between 2000-2007 (No re-basing was done during this period).

This is how Pakistan GNP goes:
http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/fbs/statistics/national_accounts/national_accounts.html

Last year of NS, or year 1999: GNP $ 62 billion dollars.

Rebasing happened in 2000
For year 2000 (figure for first Musharraf year): GNP $ 72.9 billion dollars (after re-basing is done). So you could say that this 17.5 percent increase in GNP (from 1999 to 2000) is not all true increase but there was effect of re-basing in this figure.

But what about increases after this year? Ignoring first year and taking next 7 years of Musharraf rule after re-basing … from 2000-2007: Here the figure goes: For 2007:

GNP = $ 146.33 billion dollars

So, GNP more then doubled during last 7 years of Musharraf rule (without effect of rebasing) … that is GNP increased from $72.9 billion dollars (2000) to $ 146.33 billion dollars (2007) … comes to an increase of 10.5 percent a year on average in dollars.

On top of that: KSE index gone up from 1200 to today 12500
KSE capitalisation (rough estimate):
1999 = less than $ 4 billion dollars.
2007 = over $ 50 billion dollars.

NIT that I personally have quite a few:
1999 = Rs 7.00 … and dividend was around Rs 0.60
2007 = Rs 54 … and dividend Rs 6.20 paisa (2007)

Some share prices (many shares had similar performance):
ICI in 1999 was around Rs 8 per share. Today it is Rs 153.50 (plus dividends)
National Refinery in 1999 was around Rs 15 per share. Today it is Rs 424.50 per share (plus dividends)
Lucky cement in 1999 was less than Rs 5 per share. Today it is 112.80 (plus dividends)

[Same happened with prices of most shares, as company’s production increased, profit increased, dividend increased so did their share prices]

As for Salaries and Prices:

Salary:
Chief justice of Pakistan: [It is said that to make someone do good job and make them independent and feel strong, increase their salary]

In 1973, Salary of Chief Justice was Rs 5200 a month (reasonable pay at that time) Next increase was in 1982, to Rs 6200 a month. Then increase came in 1988 and then in 1992 (bringing the salary to Rs 20000). Then there was no increase until Nawaz deposed Sajjad Ali Shah in 1997 and to thank Supreme Court judges, in 1998 he increased Chief justice Salary to Rs 40000 a month. It was expected that now this salary would stay for years to come (as in the past)

Anyhow, President Musharraf kept increasing Chief Justice Salary (as he did with all government employees) and today CJ salary is Rs 134000 a month.(6.7 times what it was in 1998, or increase of 670 during last 9 years)

[On top of that, Chief Justice Pension and other facilities got increased by President Musharraf more substantially than salary increase. Substantial increase in Pension is also given to already retired and going to retire government employees]

As for minimum wages (applicable for all government employees), in 1999 it was kess than Rs 1500 a month. Today it is Rs 4600 a month (that is an increase of over 300 percent).

Prices:
http://www.sbp.org.pk/ecodata/pricei.pdf

As for prices, since President Musharraf came to power, average prices of all items (Food and non-food) have increase by around 54 percent (or on average 5.5 percent a year during the period of 1999-2007). [Prices of some items must have increased more than 54 percent over last 8 years and some less than 54 percent over 8 years]

[It is not my word, but that is what statistical department of ‘state bank of Pakistan’ claims … but not only that, People’s party senator recently complained in Senate that prices of essentials (food items, that increased more than non-food items) have increased in Islamabad by more than other places as it has increased in between 40 percent to 80 percent since 1999 (that comes to an average of 4.3 percent to 7.6 percent a year). Senator was complaining that plot allotted for agricultural use in Islamabad to contain the prices in Capital are used for farm houses, and because of that prices have increased by 40 percent to 80 percent, and that is more than rest of country.

Well, fortunately Senator did not lied as he was addressing other Senators in Senate and was not in front of Pakistani ignorant public, else he would have given some other figures :)].

Now compare the increase in Salary and increase in Prices and you will find that people standard of living also doubled, as they can buy more than twice as many things on their wages what they could have bought 8 years ago. [Obviously I mean those that have jobs and those that have not started having twice as many kids as they had 8 years ago :)]

[Here is a post from Jang written by someone in viewers’ forum, that says a lot:

http://www.jang.net/vf/default.asp?PageNo=2

I don’t see any revolution coming. If returning of Nawaz Sharif is considered a revolution, then we are better off without such revolutions. I am a common civilian and I come from a single parent middle class family. I did my masters when Musharraf took over, I got the job and so did my three siblings without any sifarish and now I am doing PhD from the Netherlands, thanks to the government of Pakistan. My mother who is a government servant in 16 grade got a huge pay raise by the Musharraf government, my father-in-law who is a retired government servant got a good amount of raise in his pension and now he can support himself and his wife in a better and independent way. My husband got the job without sifarish and all of us are doing well and our standards of living are getting better day after day and I see the increasing standards of living of the people like me around me. What else does a common man want? I request the media not to add fuel to the fire. The media should not abuse its freedom. I don’t expect this at least from The News.

Hina Khan]

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article

WOWWWWWWW!!! $ 146.3333333333333 billion dawlllars..it’s raining dawwllars here.

I mean..WOWWWWWW!! we r so lucky.

acha chalo..aik chotay say sawaal ka jawaab day do This figure…146.333333333 billion dawllars, (o0o0o0ooo) is it based on fixed cost or market price?

doosri baat, we was talking GDP, u is talking GNP.

farq saaf zahir hai. is ka jawaab dain, then we’ll talk.

Lastly, I don’t wish to take credit away from Mushy for the “economic miracle” but if u r going to question my intentions on fair criticism, then u better have answers to my questions. :slight_smile:

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article

What a nice feeling:hoonh:, aren’t we lucky? :smiley:

Bhai, dollar is dollar, its green and you buy them for around Rs 61 in Pakistan and can spend them in USA if you want to :). Actually, when calculating GNP of Nawaz time (1999), I used official exchange rate of Nawaz time in 1999 (that was Rs 46.80). If I used market exchange rate in 1999, than GDP would have been much lower, as at that time open market rate was hovering around Rs 60 (at one time in 1998, dollars was Rs 76 in open market)

As for rate during Musharraf time, since he let the rupee completely convertible, open market rate and official exchange rate is almost same, thus GNP figures (in dollars) reflects what it really is in dollars.

Chalo, may woh figures bhie day daytaa hoon jiss kee aap baat ker rahay hou:smile:

Yr ..… Ex rt … GDP (Rs) ….. GNP (Rs) …. GDP ($) …. GNP ($)
‘99 … 46.8 … 2938 bn …… 2913 bn … $ 63.5 bn … $ 62 bn

Figures after re-basing:

‘00 … 51.8 … 3778 bn …… 3826 bn…. $ 73 bn …. $ 72.9 bn
‘07 … 60.6 … 8707 bn …… 8868 bn… $ 144 bn … $ 146 bn

So, you can see that GDP also increased from $73 billion in 2000 to $144 billion in 2007. Actually my intention was not to give figures that looks a bit better but the reason was that GNP is actually more meaningful figure of a country’s economical strength (and strength of the well being of the people living in the country), not GDP

Though, I feel that you doubt my intention :). Believe me brother, I am not NS, BB or their chaila chamcha that I would try to misguide anyone :d:. Nevertheless, let me give you my reasons so that no doubt remains in your mind :).

GDP is domestic output of a country but a country’s economy (and well being of a country) does not only depend on its domestic output. It also depends on trade, services, and other financial transactions of a country from outside sources (other countries).

For instance, suppose if there is a professional (engineer, doctor, or whatever) working in Pakistan and earning Rs 600000 a year. Thus, he would be contributing Rs 600000 to the GDP for that year. If he leaves to work in another country, Pakistan GDP would go down by Rs 600000. But this professional might have family in Pakistan and sends some money to Pakistan every year (or may send nothing). If (I mean if) this professional sends some money to Pakistan it would effect the well being of his family (and also the country), but that would not show in GDP but it would be there in GNP. Same way, Pakistan trade balance would not show in GDP but it would show in GNP (would reduce GNP if Pakistan imports more than exports, and would increase GNP if exports are more than imports). Similarly cost of any services that Pakistan gets from other countries or gives to other countries would be there in GNP and not in GDP (though that effect the economy and well being of Pakistan … and Pakistani population).

So you can see that GDP is not really proper figure of country’s well being, but GNP is. That is why I quoted GNP, not GDP.

Brother, why I would question your intentions? You are not chaila chamcha of NS or BB that I would question your intentions ;). But I do feel that you find very difficult to accept good works of someone you may not like (for whatever reason). Maybe, you are from well connected family and have a decent life, and sham democracy where rich thugs and crooks represent poor and deprived matters to you more than a dictator that does work for the well being of the country. Probably, you may have this illusion that thugs, crooks, and political actors would do any good for the country (I don’t).

To me, objective is more important than means to achieve that objective [as long as it is not unjust to anyone or is not un-Islamic (not the way retards understand Islam, but the way intelligent and thoughtful people understand Islam)].

On the other hand, I do not think that factory owners can represent factory workers, landlords can represent landless farmers, or those that never worked (and earned their livings) in their life could represent those who if they do not work, they would starve. I do not even think that these thugs and crooks once in power would do any good for poor country like Pakistan. Hence to me, Pakistan could never have democracy as long as such system would be there where only crooks and thugs could come to power. So I do not cry for sham democracy, rather to me a working class army general that do good for the country is 1000s time better than these thugs, crooks, and political actors.

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aray bhai toh aap market price ki baat ker rahai ho na..seedha sa sawal tha..simple sa jawaab tha. why say it in 3000 para's?

to meri jaan..GDP based on MP have a tendency to mislead. zara fixed cost GNP/GDP figure batain gay.

Meharbaani. Shukriya.

Paindoo list...
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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

hmmmmmmmm :slight_smile:

Well, GNP in real terms increased by over 55 percent from 1999 to 2007 (8 years), that comes to around 5.65 percent a year (on average).

GNP in real terms increased by 39.22 percent from 2002 to 2007 (5 years), that comes to around 6.85 percent a year (on average).

This is a very good real increase and Pakistan never had such real average increase in Pakistan history (either one takes 8 years period or 5 years period). Very few countries in the world had such increase over 5 years period (average of 6.85 percent a year) or even 8 years period (average of 5.65 percent a year) :hoonh:

If by any chance Pakistan manages real GNP increase of 7 percent a year over next 50 years than Pakistanis would become as rich as what Americans are today (even if Pakistani population increases by 2.5 percent a year).

If such increase continues for next 75 years, Pakistanis would become richer than Americans what Americans would be 75 years from now (even if Pakistan population increases by 2.5 percent a year and American population growth and economical growth stay growing at same pace as it is doing today). :smiley:

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

Do I hear money hungry people supporting an illegal regime again???

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

bhai..I keep asking a simple question, u keep dodging.

GDP at Factor Cost, please.

Thank you.

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

Brother, what do you want me to say? What you are asking has no real answer. What I mentioned earlier about percentage increases, that is actually what one can best answer when talking about GDP (or GNP) increase in constant price.

To understand it … just look at the figures:

In year 2000 Pakistan GNP was Rs 3826 billion that translate to $72.9 billion (@ Rs 51.80 per dollar)

In year 2007 Pakistan GNP was Rs 8868 billion that translate to $146.3 billion (@ Rs 60.60 per dollar)

In year 2007 Pakistan GNP in constant price (taking year 2000 as base year) was around Rs 5639 billion.

Now, what one can understand from that? It only means that Rs 8868 billion (real GNP) of 2007 if it is translated in rupee of 2000, it would be equivalent to Rs 5639 billion (in 2000 price). That’s all.

To quote this figure in dollar would be ridiculous, as there is no exchange rate a person can use to translate this figure into dollars. Hence the best one can say is that, GNP increased by around 49.2 percent between year 2000 and year 2007 (in 7 years). That comes to around 6.06 percent a year (over those 7 years).

In reality when one quotes figures of real increase or increase at constant price, figures are just academic, other than when quoted in percentage terms (that would show real increase in GNP or GDP).

Just imagine that Rs 8869 billion GNP of Pakistan in 2007 was actual GNP in Pakistani rupees that was circulating in Pakistan during year 2007. No one can give any figures different from this. If it is converted into dollars than using conversion rate in 2007 (@ 60.60 to a dollar), we have $146.33 billion (that is also real value).

Now, if one starts looking its value at constant price making year 2000 as base year, than GNP would be Rs 5639 billion. That is not the end. Question arises that why base year should be 2000? Actually why not 1980, and if 1980 is taken as base year, GNP would be much lower (depending on past inflation). On the other hand if one looks at figure in 2010 and wants the base year as 2010 than 2007 GNP would increase from Rs 8869 billion to a higher figure (depending on inflation between 2007 and 2010). Suppose cumulative inflation during next 3 years would be 22.5 percent (7 percent a year) than 2007 GNP in 2010 price would be Rs 10865 billion (much more than Rs 8869 billion, what it really is). Hence to give real increase in value other than ‘percentage’ is just academic (has no real purpose).

Well Pakistan GNP in 2007 is Rs 8869 billion

But (assuming average inflation in Pakistan of around 7 percent a year)

GNP of 2007 in 1980 prices = Rs 1500 billion.
GNP of 2007 in 1990 prices = Rs 2900 billion.
GNP of 2007 in 2000 prices = Rs 5639 billion.
GNP of 2007 in 2007 prices = Rs 8869 billion (real figure).
GNP of 2007 in 2010 prices = Rs 10900 billion.
GNP of 2007 in 2020 prices = Rs 21400 billion.

Now pick your choose as academically all these figures (if accurately translated) are same ;)

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

Saleem bhai:

http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/fbs/statistics/national_accounts/table3.pdf

8th column from the left. scroll down to where it says base year = 1999/2000.

Calculate the percentage difference between 07 and 00.

Results r good but not quite as earth shattering as u have urself belive.

Baqqi baatain baad mein. Now its time for jumma prayers.

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Brother, you did not read my post else you would not have written what you wrote: ‘Calculate the percentage difference between 07 and 00’. :). Because when you asked me to give you real figures (figures at constant price), than that is what I did in my posts (read post #**45 **). All my figures in post #**45 **comes from same table you quoted. Using the table:

http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/fbs/statistics/national_accounts/table3.pdf

GNP in 2000 = Rs 3778255 million (or Rs 3778 billion)
GNP in 2002 = Rs 4050371 million (or Rs 4050 billion)
GNP in 2007 = Rs 5638818 million (or Rs 5639 billion)
(All above figures (2000 and after) are real value of GNP in rupees of year 2000 … or base year 2000)

Thus from above figures (I quoted earlier too … in post #**45 **)

**GNP in real terms increased by 49.26 percent from 2000 to 2007 (7 years), that comes to around 5.9 percent a year (on average). **

GNP in real terms increased by 39.22 percent from 2002 to 2007 (5 years of this parliament), that comes to around 6.85 percent a year (on average).

Bhai, you accuse me that I believe these figures as ‘earth shattering’****. Well, where did I write that these figures are earth shattering? I did not write anywhere neither gave such impression that I believe these figures are ‘earth shattering’. Actually, I wrote that growth is very good, and I gave reason for that too (read my post #**45 **).

Nevertheless, what do you think … Is real average GNP growth of 7 percent over extended period of time a very good growth or not?

Seems that you agree (and I believe that any sensible person would agree) that this is good growth, as you wrote that ‘results are good’, so what is the problem brother, is it that you want to argue for the sake of argument? :).

You know why I said that such growth is very good? It is because such growth would give enough per capita real increase that would bring Pakistani per capita equal to USA per capita (of today) in 50 years. I think that if that would happen, it would be a big achievement.

I would consider GNP growth ‘earth shattering’ if Pakistan manages to achieve over 10 percent real average growth in GNP continuously for extended period of time [for instance 30 years plus, as that could bring Pakistani living standard one of the highest in the world].

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alright. I didnt read ur posts beyond the first 2-3 lines because all U were doing was either quoting me GNP figures or GDP figures at market price. What I wanted to see was GDP at FC because that's the more reasonable measure of economic indicator for me and a whole lot of other people.

Now:

Here:

Wealth is concentrated. Asset accumulation in lower strata's is still negligible. Shining Pakistan walli baat hai. But if u r living in urban areas, u'll defninitely see some improvement in life, if u could somehow ignore the inflation. I dont know if anyone's worked on it but I would like to have a look at Pakistan's gini coefficient.

Contrary to ur insinuation, I was not arguing. I was only pointing out the affects of re-basing, while acknowledging some improvement in the economy. Anyway if u must know, Reza's posts r usually one way. So no chances of useful debate there.

As long as speculative capital takes precedence over productive capital.

Sure.

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Re: Pakistan at 60 a Well-Written News Article (merged)

More bad news for democrats :smiley:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aJ9oFfb6c5js&refer=india

** Pakistan’s Stocks Jump Most in a Year: World’s Biggest Mover **

By Farhan Sharif

Oct. 1 (Bloomberg) – Pakistan stocks surged the most in a year after the Supreme Court ruled that President Pervez Musharraf will be able to seek a second five-year term in an Oct. 6 election. Oil & Gas Development Co., the nation’s largest company by market value, led the advance.

The Karachi Stock Exchange 100 Index rose 384.06, or 2.9 percent, to close at 13,737.74, its highest since Aug. 3. That’s the biggest gain since August 2006 and the largest fluctuation among markets included in global benchmarks.

The rally was to be expected after the court decision,'' said Abdul Azeem, an analyst at Invest Capital & Securities Ltd., in Karachi. There is a perception in the market that Musharraf’s re-election will be good for the economy.‘’

Pakistan’s Supreme Court ruled Musharraf eligible to seek re-election, clearing the way for a key U.S. ally to extend his eight-year-old rule. Petitions challenging Musharraf’s plan to seek a second term while keeping his post of army chief were dismissed on Sept. 28., according to a ruling read out in the court by Rana Bhagwandas, the nation’s second most senior judge.

A total of 236 lawmakers from the All Parties Democratic Movement will resign from the national parliament and the four provincial assemblies tomorrow to protest Musharraf standing, Siddique-ul-Farooq, a spokesman for the Pakistan Muslim League - Nawaz, a member of the alliance, said by telephone late yesterday.

`Comfortable Majority’

Musharraf has a ``comfortable majority’’ among lawmakers to win a new term, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, said yesterday, according to a government statement in Islamabad. Pakistan’s national and provincial assemblies choose the president.

Oil & Gas Development Co. Ltd., the nation’s biggest energy explorer, rose 3.04 percent to 118.50 rupees. National Bank of Pakistan, the nation’s biggest lender by assets, rose 5 percent to 256.20 rupees. MCB Bank Ltd., Pakistan’s biggest lender by market value, rose 5 percent to 349.65 rupees.

Pakistan Petroleum Ltd., the nation’s biggest natural gas producer, rose 2.3 percent to 272.10 rupees. United Bank Ltd., Pakistan’s third-largest lender, rose 5 percent to 188.45 rupees. Pakistan Telecommunication Co., the nation’s biggest telephone service provider, rose 2.9 percent to 54 rupees. Pakistan Oilfields Ltd., the nation’s third-largest energy explorer, rose 4.4 percent to 322.95 rupees.

To contact the reporter on this story: Farhan Sharif in Karachi at [email protected] .

Last Updated: October 1, 2007 05:33 EDT

Governor Punjab Salman Taseer murdered in Islamabad
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A pro-Musharraf ruling adds billions to the KSE. :k: :jhanda:

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Another day of the KSE surgung higher and higher after the pro-Musharraf SC verdict. :k:

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=30091

KSE-index gains 187 points to 13921 at closing

Karachi Stock Exchange (KSE) bull-run drive continued for the second day in a row, amply demonstrating that the investors were better well informed than those of the intelligentsia blowing gloom and doom, which culminated in the index breaching past the 13,900 marks today after a break of two and a half months. The market opening on a positive note went on upbeat and buoyant all through the day and the KSE-100 shares index surged by 187 points to close at 13921 points. Turnover today exceeding over 40 million shares as compared yesterday aggregated to 350 million shares. Volume leader OGDCL shares price rose by Rs2.55 to close at Rs121.05. D. G. Khan Cement shares price increased by Rs0.25 and Arif Habib Securities by Rs1.85 to close at Rs113.90 and Rs142.35 respectively. KSE-30 index swelled up by 272 points reached at 17048. Analysts predict that the market could leap beyond the 14,000 marks in the days to come.

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God Bless Pakistan. God Bless President Musharaf. :jhanda:

Booo to nay sayers. :hehe:

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Where did u get the quote in bold from?.its not there in the original article.
DowJones and Asian markets have swung wildly the past month.

Tagged - Lippy!!!
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Google of ** "largest fluctuation among markets included in global benchmarks" ** takes you to teh same link to Bloomberg.. Seems like they changed the wordings after I posted.

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Unbelievable gains in KSE! :k:

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=30191

Bullish trend continues on fourth day at KSE
Updated at 1555 PST

KARACHI: The bullish trend continued on fourth day at the Karachi Stock Exchange as index also crossed the limit of 14,100 on Thursday. Today, market opened with an increase of 49 points and at one occasion index was seen even at 14,138 points. At the end of the trading day, it became 14,100 points after having a gain of 54 points. Trade volume was 280 million shares today, 30 million shares less than yesterday’s volume.

Highest volumes were witnessed in the National Bank of Pakistan which closed at Rs271 with a gain of Rs7.65. followed by OGDC which closed at Rs124.90 with a loss of 60 paisa, and Lucky Cement at Rs137.60 with a gain of Rs1.85. KSE 30-index reached 17,333 points after an increase of 75 points.** Analysts say that the market can cross the highest level in the history of the country by reaching 14,200 points in the coming days. **

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^ Mashallah.

God Bless the KSE. God Bless President Musharaf and his govt. economic policies.

:jhanda:

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Pakistanis who are educated don't care to see the rest of the country get educated. They want class differences to persist.