Our Transnational Identities & Links

[X2]

Great discussion going on here.

Ofcourse the linkages with Pakistan will get weaker, but its not a given. If each generation is marrying someone raised in Pakistan/has spent a year or two in the country, that linkage will continue to be strengthened.

The other day I was reading about 'Birthright Isreal' and its newer version 'Birthright Armenia' both programs reintroduce teenagers to their country of origin through trips and cultural programs.I am not saying that we need a similar program, but an unofficial basis, younger kids can be sent to do 1st or 2nd grade there, so that a sense of identity is embedded into them during their formative years.

Integrating into the West has become easier for children, since they become fluent in language, adopting cultural norms...so its not something we need to be concerned with.

pak-one.

and here we have it, if other groups found it an issue and have to have programs in place to try and preserve as much of their heritage as possible, without such a thing we will lose that connection, and i think even with such programs, you reduce the rate of the cultural loss, but it happens regardless.

I was reading an interesting article once about japenese americans, and how the 5th generation and new immigrants clashed, and that is what we with outr future generations. so not 1.5 gen, or 2nd gen folks, but third gen, where the kids have US born parents, thats where the big dip starts occuring, between 3rd and 5th gen..almost all is gone.

the percentage of ppl marrying from old country decreases gen by gen. its shown in other immigrant communities as well.

[sazzie]

@X2

I gave you the proof of italian americans, vast majority of whom have never been to italy and dont speak italian.

here is some basic stuff, there are books written in aculturation and cultural assimilation by generation, all you have to do is read.

http://www.danagioia.net/essays/eitalamer.htm

But each new generation of Italian-Americans finds its cultural links with the old country more tenuous. As the Little Italies disappear, and families disperse to the suburbs, the descendants of Italian immigration gradually merge their once sharply differentiated ethnic identity in mainstream America. Values change subtly but significantly. Intermarriage becomes the rule rather than the exception. If a third generation Italian-American speaks Italian, he or she usually learned it not in the kitchen but in college

Massey study shows rapid loss of Spanish language among Mexican immigrants in the United States

*The authors found that although the generational life expectancy of Spanish is greater among Mexicans in Southern California than other groups, its demise is all but assured by the third generation. Third-generation immigrants are American-born with American-born parents but with three or four foreign-born grandparents. *

*In the second generation, fluency in Spanish was greater for Mexican immigrants than for other Latin American groups, and substantially greater than the proportions of Asian immigrants who could speak their mother tongue very well. In the third generation, only 17 percent of Mexican immigrants still speak fluent Spanish, and in the fourth generation, just 5 percent. The corresponding fourth-generation figure for white European immigrants is 1 percent. *

Ok, i got it lol. I can see why people lose links with places they originate from/have roots in. But if you are married to someone from that country, there’s a stronger and more likely chance of you feeling a connection to that case. i guess im one of the minority lol.

[SindSagar]

Pir Sahib! you are right to some extent however it is quite heartening to hear Pake-one who was not born in Pakistan, long for Pakistan becuase of the people he met there…that in my opinion is the main reason one stays connected with ancesteral lands…the extended family and friends.

Italian example does not hold to much water…when people commit crimes they run back to their homeland…

plus there were no 747’s to get you back in less than a day…steam ships would take months to travel.

I ask every one on this thread…

would you have considered coming so far from home if your only option was to travel by sea…be honest? :desimunda:

[X2]

@sazzie

Ok, i got it lol. I can see why people lose links with places they originate from/have roots in. But if you are married to someone from that country, there’s a stronger and more likely chance of you feeling a connection to that case. i guess im one of the minority lol.

true, but each successive geberation is less likelyto marry someone living in theri ancesteral homeland. The case of japanese americans is an example of that.

@SindSagar

Pir Sahib! you are right to some extent however it is quite heartening to hear Pake-one who was not born in Pakistan, long for Pakistan becuase of the people he met there…that in my opinion is the main reason one stays connected with ancesteral lands…the extended family and friends.

Italian example does not hold to much water…when people commit crimes they run back to their homeland…

plus there were no 747’s to get you back in less than a day…steam ships would take months to travel.

I ask every one on this thread…

would you have considered coming so far from home if your only option was to travel by sea…be honest? :desimunda:

Sindsagar, pak-one is in minority though. it is also not just about links or feelings for a land, but also identity, which includes language, culture..music, literature, poetry etc etc. Lets just say for the most part that goes away with each generation.

747s have been around for a few decades now. the three generation impact is there. you can be a third generation ..if someone moved to US in the 60’s, and I do think they had planes then and had a kid in 1964, that kid would be second generation american, lets say this has a kid in 1989, that kid would be a freshman in college with all opportunities to go to pakistan with you know planes and all.

in the end the points I made about change occuring, its not my own hypothesis, although it is fairly easy to observe.

the rate of this change varies by community and obviously by family and by person, but it is a reality.

Italian example defintely hold water, soemone running away from the law is little to do with how Italian they are compared to Italians in italy… majority of them dont have italian citizenship anyways, cant speak the language. Italian american culture and identity is not quite the same as Italian culture and identity.

[sazzie]

x2, yup i see this happening lots in the UK, lots of people opt out of marrying someone from pakistan. lots of people here, mainly the girls, want educated hubbies, and i guess the options they have in pakistani husbands are not too good lol.

[X2]

Re: Our Transnational Identities & Links

sazzie, I have cousions in Uk who married non Pakistani guys.
additionally, atleast in my family, we dont see people born in UK, US or Canada going to Pakistan to find a spouse, they have married newer immigrants i.e. someone who moved here for education, or had immigrated already. The trend that I see in some desi communities in UK where parents ask their kids to marry from the biradari and bring someone from their ancestral hometown in Pakistan seems to be much less in US in comparison as well.

[sazzie]

sazzie, I have cousions in Uk who married non Pakistani guys. additionally, atleast in my family, we dont see people born in UK, US or Canada going to Pakistan to find a spouse, they have married newer immigrants i.e. someone who moved here for education, or had immigrated already. The trend that I see in some desi communities in UK where parents ask their kids to marry from the biradari and bring someone from their ancestral hometown in Pakistan seems to be much less in US in comparison as well.

Well in the UK, not so long ago, many girls married guys from pakistan, but in recent years, this is less so it seems. as i said before, it seems to be cos girls want educated hubbys, and i guess the offers they have from pakistan, are not from educated guys. and the educated guys there in pakistan, they are happy to stay in pakistan, they get good jobs and don't feel the need or desire to move to the 'west' whereas the non educated guys, want to come here, they think the streets are paved with gold lol. times are a changin basically.

[X2]

Re: Our Transnational Identities & Links

sazzie, I am very familiar with UK. I am a brit. just in self imposed exile to US :)
In the importing spouse scenario, it appears that its the lesser educated Brit-paks who are doing it, or rather ppl from the lesser educated backgrounds for the most part, not all, but majority from my observations. There have been some reports by the home office in recent years looking at this phenomenon as well as the iner family and biradari weddings as well. If I get my hands on those reports I will share them here, but that is a whole diff topic.

[Dushwari]

Re: Our Transnational Identities & Links

excellent post. i am so glad that you wrote what you wrote.

please know that many people think like this. the identity shaping and reshaping process ought not to have reached a halt.
if all people will become the same, that wont be good.

yes in morals and in absolute ethics, everyone should follow the same rules of respecting and caring for justice and fairness. but in living lives, not all people should become programmed robots.

so in what context do people want to re establish their families, communities and societies?

is there such a thing as global village that has already taken hold all over the world?
how can migrating people check acculturation and integration?

what are the key roles that women, men, elderly, young adults and growing children play in ensuring a balance between original identity and captured reformed identity?

some of the questions to be looked at and reflected upon.
any thoughts?

best,
Dushwari

[pak-one]

@X2

pak-one.

and here we have it, if other groups found it an issue and have to have programs in place to try and preserve as much of their heritage as possible, without such a thing we will lose that connection, and i think even with such programs, you reduce the rate of the cultural loss, but it happens regardless.

I was reading an interesting article once about japenese americans, and how the 5th generation and new immigrants clashed, and that is what we with outr future generations. so not 1.5 gen, or 2nd gen folks, but third gen, where the kids have US born parents, thats where the big dip starts occuring, between 3rd and 5th gen..almost all is gone.

the percentage of ppl marrying from old country decreases gen by gen. its shown in other immigrant communities as well.

Monsieur, I am not denying the loss of cultural linkage over time and across generations, I am talking about preserving what you can. That Japanese-American example is a good one, I have a buddy, japanese-american, Stanford MBA, had grandparents interned during WWII...he considers himself fully American, however when we are meeting with clients (especially during social occasions/dinner) he is constantly asked where his family is from. Another friend, white guy never gets asked the same question eventhough his parents are Brits and he was educated in US (so no accent) yet is proud to be English...whats up with that? Lose your culture, yet you're still not American unless you (pass for) white.. you are at best, an hypenated American.

Not me! No Sir, I say that I am Pakistani. I don't care if you think Pakistan= Terror or some third world rathole..thats where I am from and I am not one to hide beyond my Brit or American labels. The accidental location of my birth will not change the fact that my heritage is from Pakistan (and a lesser extent Afghanistan).

Anyways, returning from that lengthy digression, the responsibility of transposing ethnic/religious values lies with the parents. If the parents are more motivated towards assimilation, their children have a tougher time linking to their roots. In college, I had to take an advnced urdu course to meet proficency requirements. This course was largely full of Pakistani-Americans students with atrocious urdu skills, yet they had a desire to learn..in such instances I blame their parents for thinking urdu is an inferior langauge to english.

You can be educated, well integrated and yet be religious and hold your Pakistani culture..it takes a lot more work, but its well worth it.

[pak-one]

excellent post. i am so glad that you wrote what you wrote.

please know that many people think like this. the identity shaping and reshaping process ought not to have reached a halt. if all people will become the same, that wont be good.

yes in morals and in absolute ethics, everyone should follow the same rules of respecting and caring for justice and fairness. but in living lives, not all people should become programmed robots.

so in what context do people want to re establish their families, communities and societies?

is there such a thing as global village that has already taken hold all over the world? how can migrating people check acculturation and integration?

what are the key roles that women, men, elderly, young adults and growing children play in ensuring a balance between original identity and captured reformed identity?

some of the questions to be looked at and reflected upon. any thoughts?

best, Dushwari

Very academic :)

The way I look at it, there has to be a clear line delineating our identities.

At work, I am the American team player who likes international assignments.
At home, I am a Muslim who needs to make up all his prayers and read the Quran.
With Family & Friends, I am the Pakistani who is interested in talking about home and reading poetry, akhbaar, and listening to music.

So, I feel that I am fulfilled by my various facets of identity. I don't feel the need to speak english when I am conversing with my parents, just like I have to read Arabic when reading the Quran.

Nothing wrong with migrations and taking on new identities..as long as the older ones are not cast aside.