Old man on his Donkey !!!!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

It's people who hold beliefs like these that make the world a much more difficult and dangerous place to live.

**
well why isreal went after hamas after recent suicide attacts? if you are so passionate abt peace then don't you think they should have left hamas alone and give truce a chance? why military decided to kill hamas leaders? its simple, to take revenge for the the deaths of those jews killed in the attacts. their families didn't had to do anything bcoz they knew their government will take revenge on their behalf. however, on palestinian side, they have no military to take revenge against the deaths of their loved ones so they are stepping forward to take revenge.
**

A while ago, a thread was posted talking about how an Israeli Jew was killed in a terrorist bombing by some Hamas cockroach. The "revenge" taken was the family donating one of the victims organs for transplant into a Palestinian.

If I'm not mistaken, this has also happened in reverse: i.e. Palestinian victim's organs transplanted in Israeli Jew.

**
yeah bravo. number of ppl saved : 1,
number of ppl killed since then? countless :~)
**

"revenge is the only way" is just a plain, ignorant attitude.

**
yeah go preach this BS to that filthy-cockroach sheron and his government. lets see if they'll hear to your meow meow.
**

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

It's people who hold beliefs like these that make the world a much more difficult and dangerous place to live.

A while ago, a thread was posted talking about how an Israeli Jew was killed in a terrorist bombing by some Hamas cockroach. The "revenge" taken was the family donating one of the victims organs for transplant into a Palestinian.

If I'm not mistaken, this has also happened in reverse: i.e. Palestinian victim's organs transplanted in Israeli Jew.

"revenge is the only way" is just a plain, ignorant attitude.
[/QUOTE]

Its pple like you who support cockroaches like Bush and Sharon which makes this world a dangerous place. WHen you go and
1. Kick pple out of there homes
2. HUmiliate them.
3. Kill pple in cold blood as this guy on a donkey.,
His kids wont understand the peace philosophy they would only want revenge.

SST

its very easy to sit here read it and post ideas on forum i am afraid you are not that rational when you are living in middle of brutality. Just put yourself in their shoes and think what will you do?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Wise One: *
its very easy to sit here read it and post ideas on forum i am afraid you are not that rational when you are living in middle of brutality. Just put yourself in their shoes and think what will you do?
[/QUOTE]
I agree, if I was Israeli and saw 20 of countrymen blown apart by some sucide bomber, I would want my army to level the areas where the terrorists came from.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
I agree, if I was Israeli and saw 20 of countrymen blown apart by some sucide bomber, I would want my army to level the areas where the terrorists came from.
[/QUOTE]

^
but you'll never see isreali brutality in palestanian areas rite? that does not count as a brutal inhumane act. its more like kill as many as you can and we'll have more land to ourself. but sadly they don't know that pendulum swing boith ways. :~)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EntityParadigm: *

[/QUOTE]

Dear Entity,

Could be wrong but, I think they targeted those leaders after the bus bombing which killed 21 people including 6 children?

Never ending cycle eh?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

Dear Entity,

Could be wrong but, I think they targeted those leaders after the bus bombing which killed 21 people including 6 children?

Never ending cycle eh?
[/QUOTE]

^
this man on the donkey was a secret hamas leader?
8 years old girl killed yesterday by isreali solders was working for hamas?
other civilians killed b4 and during truce were terrorists and were working for hamas etc.

now i see the link. everyone killed on isreali side was an innocent civilian. everyone killed on palestinian side was a terrorist be it an old guy or a 8 year old girl. simple as that. :~)

Here is another story about an old man and his donkey…

Excerpt but woth reading in its entirety. Was written by a descendent of Holocaust survivors…

My research focused on whether it was possible to promote economic development under conditions of military occupation. That summer changed my life because it was then that I came to understand and experience what occupation was and what it meant. I learned how occupation works, its impact on the economy, on daily life, and its grinding impact on people. I learned what it meant to have little control over one’s life and, more importantly, over the lives of one’s children.

As with the Holocaust, I tried to remember my very first encounter with the occupation. One of my earliest encounters involved a group of Israeli soldiers, an old Palestinian man and his donkey.

Standing on a street with some Palestinian friends, I noticed an elderly Palestinian walking down the street, leading his donkey. A small child no more than three or four years old, clearly his grandson, was with him. Some Israeli soldiers standing nearby went up to the old man and stopped him.

One soldier ambled over to the donkey and pried open its mouth. ‘Old man,’ he asked, ‘why are your donkey’s teeth so yellow? Why aren’t they white? Don’t you brush your donkey’s teeth?’ The old Palestinian was mortified, the little boy visibly upset. The soldier repeated his question, yelling this time, while the other soldiers laughed.

The child began to cry and the old man just stood there silently, humiliated. This scene repeated itself while a crowd gathered. The soldier then ordered the old man to stand behind the donkey and demanded that he kiss the animal’s behind. At first, the old man refused but as the soldier screamed at him and his grandson became hysterical, he bent down and did it.

The soldiers laughed and walked away. They had achieved their goal: to humiliate him and those around him. We all stood there in silence, ashamed to look at each other, hearing nothing but the uncontrollable sobs of the little boy. The old man did not move for what seemed a very long time. He just stood there, demeaned and destroyed.

I stood there too, in stunned disbelief. I immediately thought of the stories my parents had told me of how Jews had been treated by the Nazis in the 1930s, before the ghettos and death camps, of how Jews would be forced to clean sidewalks with toothbrushes and have their beards cut off in public. What happened to the old man was absolutely equivalent in principle, intent and impact: to humiliate and dehumanise. In this instance, there was no difference between the German soldier and the Israeli one. Throughout that summer of 1985, I saw similar incidents: young Palestinian men being forced by Israeli soldiers to bark like dogs on their hands and knees, or dance in the streets.

In this critical respect, my first encounter with the occupation was the same as my first encounter with the Holocaust, with the number on my father’s arm. It spoke the same message: the denial of one’s humanity. It is important to understand the very real differences in volume, scale and horror between the Holocaust and the occupation and to be careful about comparing the two, but it is also important to recognise parallels where they do exist.

As a child of Holocaust survivors I always wanted to be able in some way to experience and feel some aspect of what my parents endured, which, of course, was impossible. I listened to their stories, always wanting more, and shared their tears. I often would ask myself: what does sheer terror feel like? What does it look like? What does it mean to lose one’s whole family so horrifically and so immediately, or to have an entire way of life extinguished so irrevocably? I would try to imagine myself in their place, but it was impossible. It was beyond my reach, too unfathomable.

It was not until I lived with Palestinians under occupation that I found at least part of the answers to some of these questions. I was not searching for the answers; they were thrust upon me. I learned, for example, what sheer terror looked like from my friend Rabia, 18 years old, who, frozen by fear and uncontrollable shaking, stood glued to the middle of a room we shared in a refugee camp, unable to move, while Israeli soldiers were trying to break down the front door to our shelter.

I experienced terror while watching Israeli soldiers beat a pregnant woman in her belly because she flashed a V-sign at them, and I was too paralysed by fear to help her. I could more concretely understand the meaning of loss and displacement when I watched grown men sob and women scream as Israeli Army bulldozers destroyed their home and everything in it because they built their house without the permit that the Israeli authorities had refused to give them.

It is perhaps in the concept of home and shelter that I find the most profound link between the Jews and the Palestinians and, perhaps, the most painful illustration of the meaning of occupation. I cannot begin to describe how horrible and obscene it is to watch the deliberate destruction of a family’s home while that family watches, powerless to stop it.

For Jews as for Palestinians, a house represents far more than a roof over one’s head; it represents life itself. Speaking about the demolition of Palestinian homes, Meron Benvenisti, an Israeli historian and scholar, writes: ‘It would be hard to overstate the symbolic value of a house to an individual for whom the culture of wandering and of becoming rooted to the land is so deeply engrained in tradition, for an individual whose national myth is based on the tragedy of being uprooted from a stolen homeland. The arrival of a firstborn son and the building of a home are the central events in such an individual’s life because they symbolise continuity in time and physical space. And with the demolition of the individual’s home comes the destruction of the world.’

Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians is the crux of the problem between the two peoples, and it will remain so until it ends. For the last 35 years, occupation has meant dislocation and dispersion; the separation of families; the denial of human, civil, legal, political and economic rights imposed by a system of military rule; the torture of thousands; the confiscation of tens of thousands of acres of land and the uprooting of tens of thousands of trees; the destruction of more than seven thousand Palestinian homes; the building of illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands and the doubling of the settler population over the last ten years; first, the undermining of the Palestinian economy and now its destruction; closure; curfew; geographic fragmentation; demographic isolation and collective punishment.

Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians is not the moral equivalent of the Nazi genocide of the Jews. But it does not have to be. No, this is not genocide, but it is repression, and it is brutal. And it has become frighteningly natural.

Occupation is about the domination and dispossession of one people by another. It is about the destruction of their property and the destruction of their soul. Occupation aims, at its core, to deny Palestinians their humanity by denying them the right to determine their existence, to live normal lives in their own homes.

Occupation is humiliation. It is despair and desperation. And just as there is no moral equivalence or symmetry between the Holocaust and the occupation, so there is no moral equivalence or symmetry between the occupier and the occupied, no matter how much we as Jews regard ourselves as victims.

And it is from this context of deprivation and suffocation, now largely forgotten, that the horrific and despicable suicide bombings have emerged and taken the lives of more innocents. Why should innocent Israelis, among them my aunt and her grandchildren, pay the price of occupation? Like the settlements, razed homes and barricades that preceded them, the suicide bombers have not always been there.

Memory in Judaism - like all memory - is dynamic, not static, embracing a multiplicity of voices and shunning the hegemony of one. But in the post-Holocaust world, Jewish memory has faltered, even failed, in one critical respect: it has excluded the reality of Palestinian suffering and Jewish culpability therein.

As a people, we have been unable to link the creation of Israel with the displacement of the Palestinians. We have been unwilling to see, let alone remember, that finding our place meant the loss of theirs. Perhaps one reason for the ferocity of the conflict today is that Palestinians are insisting on their voice despite our continued and desperate efforts to subdue it.

But what does it mean when Israeli soldiers paint identification numbers on Palestinian arms; when young Palestinian men and boys of a certain age are told through Israeli loudspeakers to gather in the town square; when Israeli soldiers openly admit to shooting Palestinian children for sport; when some of the Palestinian dead must be buried in mass graves while the bodies of others are left in city streets and camp alleyways because the army will not allow proper burial; when certain Israeli officials and Jewish intellectuals publicly call for the destruction of Palestinian villages in retaliation for suicide bombings, or for the transfer of the Palestinian population out of the West Bank and Gaza; when 46 per cent of the Israeli public favours such transfers and when transfer or expulsion becomes a legitimate part of popular discourse…

What are we supposed to think when we hear this? What is my mother supposed to think?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EntityParadigm: *

^
this man on the donkey was a secret hamas leader?
8 years old girl killed yesterday by isreali solders was working for hamas?
other civilians killed b4 and during truce were terrorists and were working for hamas etc.

now i see the link. everyone killed on isreali side was an innocent civilian. everyone killed on palestinian side was a terrorist be it an old guy or a 8 year old girl. simple as that. :~)
[/QUOTE]

The point I was making was a cycle of violence. I think the deaths on both sides are apalling.

I don't believe either are guiltless in the murder of innocent bystanders.

I also don't think there is any excuse to be made by either that justifies the death of innocents.

I do think that the people who call a halt to the violence are the people who deserve respect. I don't believe revenge ever works. The people who stop revenging are the people that earn my respect. And so far..niether people have stopped revenging.

I can empathize with their sorrow and pain, but I don't respect the way they live.

so what do you suggest AAG what to do? how to solve the problem?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
I agree, if I was Israeli and saw 20 of countrymen blown apart by some sucide bomber, I would want my army to level the areas where the terrorists came from.
[/QUOTE]

Just be sensible man, i hope you know the ratio of casualties on both sides. Not saying that its any easier for israelis who are dieing but what i am asking is why palestinians are terrorist and israelis aren't? when you can see the huge difference between the ratio of casualties on both sides? If israelies respond in exactly the same way then where is difference? then why aren't they held equally held responsible?

Sidelining Arafat strengthened him](The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos)

As is becoming increasingly clear, the Americans did themselves a great disfavor by ostracizing Yasser Arafat, because in doing so they bolstered his support among the Palestinians. Since the United States and Israel attacked him, people have been rallying around him.

By trying to isolate Arafat, the Americans also mistakenly distanced themselves from a source of legitimate power and decision-making in Palestine. So now they have to get to Arafat indirectly, through intermediaries, whereas before they could influence him directly.

The United States and Israel need to talk to Arafat in order to address any serious issue. There is no reason for their boycott of him. It is childish and manipulative. If the United States is serious about peace, it has to deal with Palestinian realities, not realities manufactured in someone’s mind.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, cannot do anything on his own without the cooperation of Arafat, just as he needs the help of Fatah and the Palestinian Legislative Council. Everybody has been trying to help Abbas, but he also has to help himself and understand he gains his legitimacy from the people and not just from the Americans or the Israelis.

There is such a thing as killing with kindness, and this is what the United States is doing to Abbas. Washington needs to understand the sensitivities and the balances and the intricate relationships within Palestinian domestic politics.

The State Department seems to understand this dynamic of domestic politics, and I have tried to explain it to the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, who is beginning to understand that meddling in Palestinian politics could backfire. The Americans have to understand that when they attack Arafat, he gets more support; when they embrace Abbas, he gets less.

The problem is that within the White House and Pentagon, people don’t have any connections with Palestinians. They still don’t know the full Palestinian narrative and the Arab point of view that makes our politics tick. They tend to make simplistic decisions on the basis of the Israeli version, to which they are exposed daily.

I have been asked lately if all of this might deteriorate into civil war. There is an awareness among Palestinians that civil war would be fatal for everybody, but at the same time being aware of it does not mean being able to avert it. The only way to do that is to remove the pressures that are leading the Palestinians in that direction. The No. 1 source of pressure is the Israeli assassinations, followed by the siege, the destruction, the abductions and the prisoners.

There is also, of course, pressure on Arafat and Abbas to destroy the infrastructure of terrorism - even though Israel, which has been an occupying power all these years, has not been able to stop the violence. To call on the Palestinian Authority to stop what Israel couldn’t stop is to set the authority up for a fall.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Wise One: *
Just be sensible man, i hope you know the ratio of casualties on both sides. Not saying that its any easier for israelis who are dieing but what i am asking is why palestinians are terrorist and israelis aren't? when you can see the huge difference between the ratio of casualties on both sides? If israelies respond in exactly the same way then where is difference? then why aren't they held equally held responsible?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying one are terrorist and the other innocent, but we also can't encourage suicide bombings and say shabash to them when they do it. We have seen the danger of terrorism in Pakistan. We have to find a way out of the cycle of violence, but with Sharon and Arafat, who knows it will happen.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Wise One: *
so what do you suggest AAG what to do? how to solve the problem?
[/QUOTE]

Good Question Wise One.

And the only answer I can think of is a nieve answer.

Granted both sides affected by the violence?

Perhaps Mothers.

Like maybe..

Mothers Against The Occupation MATO

Mothers Against Suicide Bombings MASB

Preferably People Against............

Get them to meet, kinda like AA and stand up and say...

Hello,
My name is ......... and this is what happend to my family and how it hurt and angered me and our community beacause of the violent death that my loved one suffered whose name was ............and was the husb/wife/child/cousin/father/mother that I miss and love. And show pictures and tell of the good traits of that person. And express the anger felt because of the death, and the reasons behind the anger.

I think its gona take those affected the most to decide when to end the violence and realize that continuing a path of violence will only create more sorrow.

I think they need feelings expressed and be heard.

Both sides.

I have to agree here. I think their job is to discourage and arrest when possible, but to hold them responsible for stopping renegade maniacs…as a condition of peace…

is setting them up for a fall.

Am I my brothers keeper? Yes I should be.

But in being so am I empowered with the ability to prevent what others do? No, Unfortunately.

But if I encourage the sabatoge of Peace, then I am guilty.