You want ifti to solve people's problems, like he apparently was before right? You want him to reduce the price of goods by waving his magic wand, give people jobs etc. Doesn't work that way. A real SC judge should only interpret law as per text of the constitution. The onus of solving people's problems falls on the legislature and executive branch.
Please try to answer what I asked u earlier and in addition to that please tell me where did i mentiioned Ifti in this topic!
Re: of Ayaz’s pragmatism, Imran’s zero political acumen and Q-league’s snickering
ay lo, ho gayee maha_bharat shuru.
single issue politics is more movement based than personality...but the reality is if Musharraf is isolated, discredited and exposed for what he is today it's not because of deals. It was the black coat movement which weakened him to the extent that he had to deal.. Political pragmatism works when there is a common sense of the rules of the game, unfortunately in Paksitan thanks to the armys destruction of institutions there are no neutral empires to guarantee a code of conduct. So the PPP backtracking on it's deal with Mush is no different from Mush backtracking on his commitments ( I pledge to abide by the conconstitution..I pledge to resign from the army in 04 etc etc) . Those who have gone for pragmatism have ended up being abandoned and targetted (virtually every political party that negotiated with the establishment, Awami League, to PPP to NAP, to MMA), the lesson of Pakistans history is Pakistans establishment can't be negotiated with because in the end they can resort to violence to get what they want..political paties can't compete with that..
Zakk, you have what I call "khatti dakars", you know the ones you get when you over-eat.
You are not naive, infact more informed than most who post here. You also know at whose request the judges were fired for the second time. And you also know exactly what the hold-up is and why it is.
BB didnt want to see a headstrong Iftikhar in office who would have been too arrogant to deal with after the re-instatement. Hey even Nawaz doesnt want to see him in office, his support for this issue is for political mileage. He has no other agenda to sell. He has no other point to convince people why he should be returned to the country. He knows he doesnt have the majority to form the government and he is too impatient to return to power, there is no way he wants to wait another 5 years for his khilafat. The whole country has been brought to a screeching halt, just to keep the air of undecisiveness prevailing. Nawaz is fully aware of Zardari's quandaries and he using them to his benefit. Screw the country for the time being as the ultimate goal is way more important than 160 million people.
You are giving the lawyers movement too much importance. They will be the first ones that will be left hanging to dry. They were used, now they will be abused. Rule of law is the empty slogan for the masses, no body in the power corridors is looking for that. The objectives are their own rule.
Musharraff was bad, these people are are worse. Just look at the state of affairs of the two parites and Musharraff. All 3 want complete sovereign authority. Zardari has a puppet prime minister and a cabinet as big as any. He is undecisive and the country and people are paying for this. None of them has any idea how to delegate. They are not analytical and have no vision, their reactions to any problem are knee jerk.
Musharraff went back on his promises to the nation, Nawaz went back on his promises not to return or participate in politics, Zardari went back on his promise to support the president and not to impeach him. And during all this time let the country burn. Promises between crooks is our biggest issue?
Justice prevailing in Pakistan is tied to Iftikhar's re-instatement. Nothing more than deewane ka khuab. Masses are being made to believe that this is being done so that no other dictator ever thinks about jumping into politics, while at the same time we are giving Kiyani the signal that we want him to take action against Musharraff everytime he meets him. Like I said, you are too smart not to know what the real motives are.
Govern the country first, please, and work on these issues side by side. Set your priorities right. Re-instatement of judges, impeachment of president will take till 2009 if everything goes smoothly, unfortunately Pakistan may reach the point of no return if the political parties keep fighting over these non-issues.
Lets not argue amongst ourselves. I agree even that khocha sitting next to Imran is more pragmatic than him....pun intended
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
GA, I want to reply to the points you raised lekin yaar baRi boriat hai filhaal, inshallah after a few hours. It wont be much different from what I wrote in my response to Zakk though.
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
Imran has never been a political force, and I doubt he ever will be. discussing him in matters of realpolitik is not very grounded.
ofcourse the political parties shouldnt take their eyes off governance, but that doesnt mean that simultaneously others cant press the govt to take action on whatever they want done.. whether that is lowering food prices or getting rid of musharraf. a large segment of the society wants more transparent rule, and a dictator (or atleast Musharraf) free pakistan. Imran simply is not a viable vessel to carry that message. you play the hand you're dealt with. there is nothing more pragmatic than relying on self serving dolts like nawaz and zardari to carry this out. if they fail, there will be consequences for them in the same system, the same pressure groups that got them a major vote bank will turn. whether or not that will be enough to change status quo is a different matter, but thats really all you can do.
it is naiive to think that politics are different anywhere. there are selfless public servants who want nothing for themselves and see themselves as part of a collective. no. they are usually selfish, corrupt individuals in it for the power. all you can do is give them what you want in exchange for what you want. thats just business.
Mr. Ayaaz is beneficiary of this exchange, so lets not think that public sentiment accounts for nothing. and even if the black coats were protesting for good governance, you really think our leaders would be delivering that?
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
Ahstray, everyone wants the judiciary restored, and Musharraf impeached, working on these two issues is merely working for what the people right now. They should work extra hard to get these two things taken care of ASAP.
Please try to answer what I asked u earlier and in addition to that please tell me where did i mentiioned Ifti in this topic!
You tell me what you expect from judiciary (ifti or whoever is heading it)?
Zakk, you have what I call "khatti dakars", you know the ones you get when you over-eat.
Good post ashtray, people like Zakk may understand, but other one hit wonders won't.
You tell me what you expect from judiciary (ifti or whoever is heading it)?
I will tell, but i do want to know why are u accusing me for something which i have not said?
is it ur way to dealing!!!
if u fail to do so.. then i gues it is useless to talk to someone who is lier.
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
Spock/ ravage,
impeach him, re-instate the judges by all means, but that does not mean you freeze the affairs of the state while you are p.ussy footing around the issue because you don't have the political will and/or have reservations on the outcome.
Ravage, Imran's inclusion in the post was just for amusement. He has already become "Imran who? The captain that won us the world cup."
They are not analytical and have no vision, their reactions to any problem are knee jerk.
You have described politicians universally ash. The same is said in every country in the world, the difference is without ..it is just said without as much venom or consequence.
Musharraff went back on his promises to the nation, Nawaz went back on his promises not to return or participate in politics, Zardari went back on his promise to support the president and not to impeach him. And during all this time let the country burn. Promises between crooks is our biggest issue?
Ah pragmatists...it is said the ultimate idealist is a saint or a madman, what does that make the ultimate pragmatist? so the joke goes Maulana Fazlur Rehman!
I've said this before, it's a very very basic argument nation states are not destroyed by their politicians being crooks or idiots; financial corruption at it's worst impoverishes nations, stifles development but it does not destroy them.
Nations are destroyed by a leaders corruption of power. To elaborate I'd argue Yahya to a greater extent and Musharraf to a lesser extent are not personally corrupt but I'd say there obsession with power exacerbated Pakistan's ethnic and sectarian divisions to a level that led to the state "writ" disintegrating.
Justice prevailing in Pakistan is tied to Iftikhar's re-instatement. Nothing more than deewane ka khuab. Masses are being made to believe that this is being done so that no other dictator ever thinks about jumping into politics, while at the same time we are giving Kiyani the signal that we want him to take action against Musharraff everytime he meets him. Like I said, you are too smart not to know what the real motives are.
Movements come, movements go ash, to say the US civil rights movement or countless others achieved their goal is a lie..in fact they failed ultimately (Nixon won!). What they do is change the terms of debate. The argument that a movement will just enable the army to take over (as it has in 1969 and 77) is to argue that any struggle is pointless?
JGovern the country first, please, and work on these issues side by side. Set your priorities right. Re-instatement of judges, impeachment of president will take till 2009 if everything goes smoothly,
Ash as someone who understands Pak politics knows that is a huge caveat..people don't know what will happen to them in the next five minutes in Pakistan let alone a year.
Re: of Ayaz’s pragmatism, Imran’s zero political acumen and Q-league’s snickering
Zakk, you are a politician yourself 
what the heck was that?
one point, probably a debate for another day, is paralels with Yahya. Yahya was not solely responsible for the break-up of Pakistan, it was the politicians of the time and the ones before him. The timing of the elections were completely off. Everyone knew that with bhashani’s boycott, Mujeeb will sweep east Pakistan and there was no way rule of the country could have been given to a person who was mentored by Indra gandhi all his political life. Bhashani should have been approached to participate, that would have split the East Pakistani mandate, but the West Pakistani politicians were too eager to get into power and failed to see Mujeeb’s influence in East and the dangers of Maulana Bhashani’s boycott.
Spock/ ravage,
impeach him, re-instate the judges by all means, but that does not mean you freeze the affairs of the state while you are p.ussy footing around the issue because you don't have the political will and/or have reservations on the outcome.
Ravage, Imran's inclusion in the post was just for amusement. He has already become "Imran who? The captain that won us the world cup."
i agree. and soon enough those freezing the affairs of the country will feel some blowback.
the best thing Musharraf can do for himself is let these people keep running the country.
it was the politicians of the time and the ones before him. The timing of the elections were completely off. Everyone knew that with bhashani's boycott, Mujeeb will sweep east Pakistan and there was no way rule of the country could have been given to a person who was mentored by Indra gandhi all his political life. Bhashani should have been approached to participate, that would have split the East Pakistani mandate, but the West Pakistani politicians were too eager to get into power and failed to see Mujeeb's influence in East and the dangers of Maulana Bhashani's boycott.
If you'll excuse the excessive use of analogies (when it is said ZAB or Mujeeb broke Pakistan, the reply goes which division did they command?) why is it that generals who wield absolute power still don't get absolute blame?
I agree with your point about Bhashani, a little correction Mujib was mentored by Suhrwardy..one of Jinnahs favourite Muslim Leaguers.
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
Mujib was wih Bhashani initially, both were socialists. They parted ways when Maulana Bhashani toned down his rhetoric of "two states" as per the original Lahore resolution. Mujib being a marxist, didnt agree with the maoist bhashani's direction. Suharwardy sahab's influence on Mujeeb was there, but I am not sure if Suharwady sahab would have agreed with him being a pawn in Indra's hands. India played their cards right the release of Mujib, after being captured for Agartala conspiracy, sealed Pakistan's fate. Mukti Bahni had become too strong and too powerful by the time Army action was taken. It is unfair to blame the Army in East Pakistan for losing it. The whole situation was handled very badly and it was a complete mess. My major disappointment with ZAB is that he was too shrewd of a politician not to see all this.
[quote]
Mukti Bahni had become too strong and too powerful by the time Army action was taken. It is unfair to blame the Army in East Pakistan for losing it. The whole situation was handled very badly and it was a complete mess. My major disappointment with ZAB is that he was too shrewd of a politician not to see all this.
[/quote]
I dont think it was the army, but the top army leadership or the top army brass that was responsible. I dont think we can blame ZAB, for his shortcomings as you indicated, especially considering he wasn't the one in power at that time.
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
Original article was interesting, the ensuing discussion is kinda the same-old same-old that is posted and re-posted daily on this forum. I think most folks here past their faarigh time here by needling others and generally low-productivity discussion (not to fall in the obvious trap as to what can we accomplish on a discussion forum anyway), but its fairly tedious to go through repetitive arguments.
Anyway....
I kinda missed it, but which party does Ayaz Amir belong to now? I am pretty sure I saw him in one of the gatherings of Parliamentarians (MNA or Senator?).
Re: of Ayaz's pragmatism, Imran's zero political acumen and Q-league's snickering
I tend to think of my debates as ISO-9000 in quality Faisal so I am offended..
I digress..To answer your question..
PML-N MNA from chawal, he has been since 1997 with them, he quit the PML-N in it's glory days of 1998 saying "no good would come of this.." or words to that effect! He's since had to leave the dawn because the editors felt having a serving PML-N MNA bashing Mush would offend the powers that be..
I kinda missed it, but which party does Ayaz Amir belong to now? I am pretty sure I saw him in one of the gatherings of Parliamentarians (MNA or Senator?).
I believe he is an MNA from PML-N