lol so you have edited your above post.
I have not edited anything except where I made a historical mistake of mentioning Amir Abdur Rehman Khan instead of Muhammad Yaqub Khan for the Gandamak treaty. You might have read it wrong first.
Safar
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
lets name it whatever people want and get it over with. What a waste of time and energy!
this post is now showing racist overtones.
We thought this thread was to rename NWFP and that's all. No one should even talk about carving the province.
Name change is kewl and kosher.
Carving up NWFP along ethnic lines is estupeed at the minimum and at its worst it is like Paks copying yet another despicable aadat of Afghanistanis.
yes i agree.marwati stop it
sai da?
Mr Safar Khan,
Where do you get this disinformation from? I bet you have fantasised most of them. The name of Afghanistan is not 100 years old. It was first approved in 1747 when Ahmad Shah Abdali(yeah the same guy from pakistani missiles) changed the name of khorasan to afghanistan.
Furthermore, by quoting a racist hazara novelist Mir Sayed Mousavi, with clear iran and shia links doesn't help your stance. That figure of 64% is just propaganda.
Burqa:
The pakhtuns in pakistan didn't slaughter non-pakhtuns. You are right. But what about the millions killed by both sides and burned in trains when crossing the border in 1947? And what about thousands bengali massacred and raped by our army in east pakistan?
I mean to say: history is full of ****. But in these times we should think differently and treat everyone the same. By attacking and rediculing other people, their country's name we just show our backwardness.
Name change is absolutely Kosher as long as the rights of the minorities (in Millions) is also protected by the federation. As sulch Abaseen, Khyber etc is perfectly fine.
Interesting to note that the same chauvinism happened in Afghanistan which was encouraged by the British!!!!
The name 'Afghanistan' for the entire country did not exist a little more than a 100 years ago. The name 'AfghanLand' (for the whole of Afghanistan) was first mentioned in the 1879 treaty of Gandamak between the British-India and the Amir Mohammed Ayub Khan
Prior to that even the Abdali rulers referred to themselves as Rulers/Amirs/Kings of Khorassan and Kabul. There was even a mostly independent Kingdom of Balkh. However as the Durrani kings backed by the British (great game) asserted control over the rest of the country the name 'Afghanistan' was adopted in place of Kabul/Khorassan.
This also led to forceful massacares and removals of Hazarajats and the defeat of Persians from Herat backed by British-Indian Army (first Anglo-Persian war). The British created a supremacy of Pashtun rulers (like the coloniast did in Rawanda between Hutus and Tutsis). The name 'Afghan'istan (Afghan is synonymous with Pashtun) enforced it was land of Pashtun and not of others.
Don't let the same happen in Frontier. Change the name to Khyber, Abaseen!
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
Name it KP yanee Khyber Pakhtunkhawa it sound good rather then Afhgania Abaseen or Abaseen Pakhtunkhawa. But ANP has a problem with tribal people as well they will never accept Khyber (since it is already the name of Khyber agency)
ANP has not changed its colors. They have only changed temporarily, because they need the "Punjabi Dal-Khor" (ANP words not mine) Army to fight the war against the Talibans. As soon as this war is over, ANP will be back showing its true racist colors.
that is a bit harsh .....actually Pak establishment needs ANP, when they win the war then they will leble them again GHADDAR......
Name it KP yanee Khyber Pakhtunkhawa it sound good rather then Afhgania Abaseen or Abaseen Pakhtunkhawa. But ANP has a problem with tribal people as well they will never accept Khyber
If it is named khyber, people of mardan will raise question why khyber why not mardan? or bannu people may wish the name bannu for province.
Afghania or pakhtunkhwa are best names.
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
Marwata rora
Khyber has a history, in subcontinent. people leaving there are not called khyberyan thye are called Afridyan, so MONGA DA KHYBER ZALMI PAKHTO ZAMONGA SHAN DEE....
Insted monga da Mardan zalmi,,,,,anyway CHE MOONG KHAPAL PAKHTANA PRI NAH MOTAFEEK KI GO NO PANGABYANO NAH SAH GEELA.
Marwata rora Khyber has a history, in subcontinent. people leaving there are not called khyberyan thye are called Afridyan, so MONGA DA KHYBER ZALMI PAKHTO ZAMONGA SHAN DEE....
Insted monga da Mardan zalmi,,,,,anyway CHE MOONG KHAPAL PAKHTANA PRI NAH MOTAFEEK KI GO NO PANGABYANO NAH SAH GEELA.
Oleander wrora:
Everyone knows that pakhtunkhwa, pakhtunistan or Afghania are more generalized names, whereas khyber is local name. In fact dara i khyber is the khyber valley, there are thousand other valleys in pakhtun khwa, dir valley, swat valley etc. By naming nwfp we might make the afridis happy but the other tribes certainly not. Why don't we pick a name based on the comonnest factor that is pakhtun. So any name derived from pakhtun should be fine. For example my favorite pakhtunkhwa, or pakhtunistan, afghania, pakhtun watan etc.
Mon you the khyber zalmi.... that is just a song man. There are many many other songs with other names in it. But we can't just change the name of whole province because it is mentioned in one popular song!
that is a bit harsh .....actually Pak establishment needs ANP, when they win the war then they will leble them again GHADDAR......
We will find out after this war (if this war ever ends). You are right, maybe its a harsh. But I wouldn't call them 'Ghaddar' as they never accepted Pakistan in the first place. In 1947 they were part of Indian Congress and demanded to remain part of India. When the referendum did not go in their favor they demanded to be merged with Afghanistan. The 'Fakhr-e-Afghan' even made sure his dead body was not burried in soil of Pakistan. I would say their stand has been consistent and consistently against Pakistan.
I even know friends who were part of ANP, joined Pakistan Civil Service but always continued to argue against Pakistan. Right now being at the receiving end of Taliban (many leaders of ANP were targeted by Taliban) they have no choice but to support the very Army they called 'Dal-Khor'.
But I don't see any change in attitude of the rank and file of ANP. LIke thejoke was mentioning most ANP members even on Facebook still use the flags of Afghanistan not Pakistan. Lets see what happens if/when this war ends. I don't expect anything positive for Pakistan as a whole from ANP. The best they can do is give Pakhtuns short term gains and long term disaster for the people of the region as a whole.
Mr Safar Khan,
Where do you get this disinformation from? I bet you have fantasised most of them. The name of Afghanistan is not 100 years old. It was first approved in 1747 when Ahmad Shah Abdali(yeah the same guy from pakistani missiles) changed the name of khorasan to afghanistan.
When Nadir Shah Afshar was assasinated by his own Qazalabash (Turko-Persian) tribe, the Abdalis chose Ahmed Khan Abdali as their leader whose first act was to give himself the title Dur-e-Durran, Pearl of Pearls. He also changed his name to Ahmed Shah Durrani. According to both :
- Al munshi, P: "Tarikh Ahmad Shahi", page 30. Kaweh, 2000
- Dr Kamal Kabuli on historian Faryaar Kohzaad's writings
"Ahmed Shah Durrani was crowned as 'Amir of Khorasan' ".
In the 19th century, according to British statesman and historian Mountstuart Elphinstone the Kingdom as a whole was known as the Kingdom of Kabul. Other parts of the country were at certain periods recognized as independent kingdoms, such as the Kingdom of Balkh in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
- Elphinstone, M., "Account of the Kingdom of Cabul and its Dependencies in Persia and India", London 1815; published by Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme & Brown.
- E. Bowen, "A New & Accurate Map of Persia" in A Complete System Of Geography, Printed for W. Innys, R. Ware [etc.], London 1747.
The word ‘Afghanistan’ was first mentioned in English. When the British invaded Afghanistan there invasion spread from Khyber to Kabul. Most of the invaded lands were predominantly Afghans or Pashtuns.
But this name was not officially recognized and when Dost Mohamad Khan becomes Amir again (after the first Anglo-Afghan war) he named himself “Amir e Khorasan” or “Amir of Khorasan.” He had previously referred to himself as Amir-ul Momineen when fighting against the Sikhs.
During the second Anglo-Afghan war, in 1879 the British replaced Yaqub Khan with his cousin Abdur Rehman Khan as Amir of Afghanistan. The Treaty of Gandamak was ratified by newly installed Amir. This treaty is the earliest known document in Farsi which mentions the name 'Afghanistan' for the WHOLE of the country.
Under Amir Abdur Rehman Khan there was centralization of the country and reassertion of authority over Balkh and Hazarajat territories (with Arms and money flowing in from British India -- Great Game). The name 'Afghanistan' was adopted by the Kabul authorities for the whole country.
It became the official name when the country was recognized by the world community in 1919, after regaining full independence over its foreign affairs from the British and was confirmed as such in the nation's 1923 constitution.
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
Ultimately ones opinion about the renaming can be classed into four arguments:
- Legal: Whats the mechanism to rename a province? In renaming Faisalabad, Attock etc there was no consultations it was done through decree. The name Kashmir has no association with rivers and neither did Bengal.
- Political: NWFP is a colonial anamoly which doesn’t reflect the wishes of the people of the province who by an overwhelming majority(90%) in 1997 supported the name Pakhtunkhwa.
3)Political: The term Pakhtunkhwa is needlessly controversial and promoted inter ethnic conflict - Status quo: Whats wrong with NWFP or subh-e-Sarhad? We have more important issues to worry about
The first is about process, the 2nd and third are about identity: politics, language and ethnicity are tied. You can argue about the merits of identity politics all you like but ignoring it is usually dangerous (one Baloch leader said forget about what we are owed..“they won’t even give them (pakhtuns ) a name which costs nothing!”) The 4th is a fair point but it’s comparing apples and oranges..you compare political issues with political issues and economic ones with economic ones.
Some corrections for others please remember the concept of ethnicity and nationality wasn’t as clearly defined in the 18th and 17th centuries..so while Punjabi meant person of five rivers it’s an ethnic term now (after all Punjab no longer has five rivers runnig through it..)
The British and Mughals called kabul to attock as the Kingdom of Kabul and the province of kabul respectively. however the british used the term Afghan generically for pakhtuns..in fact Pakhtuns in some correspondence were called Durranis as well..
Afghanistan 1747-1809: Sources in the India Office Records
.
Another correction Ghaffar khan did not suppport the pro India vote in 1947 he boycotted the vote.
Also a place of burial means little in terms of a persons life ..Rehmat Ali is buried in Britain ..Pakistans first president is buried in Iran
Finally other readers should remember not to confuse the ANP with the Khudai khidmatgar and NAP. While the ANP may have a strong influence of the two it’s politics are distinctively different. The KK was a conservative reformist non violent movement, the NAP was an all Pakistan leftist party which had Bengali, Baloch and Punjabi presidents. A relic of that in the ANP is that it’s first secretary general in 1986 was a Sindhi and it’s present one is a Punjabi.
^great post wrora, very good explanation.
Even though #1,2,4 are important. But the main issue is #3. Political.
This is just politics to make the name an issue much larger than what it should have been in the first place.
That’s why I support renaming to Pakhtunkhawa (or Pakhtunistan) whatever and get the issue removed from the list.
supporters of Pkhawa are a bit naive in this. they should not have made this as a political issue. They should have been aware that Pakistan had suffered so much from bloody ethnic politics in 1971.
In fact most of us are still living with that trauma,
and later few more ethnic + viloent + terroristic movements came up that were suppressed by the law enforcement agencies.
and many many patriotic Paks fear yet another blowout in the name of one ethnicity
It is correct that ANP has changed its ways. But some of its lingo remains the same.,
Just tell the people of Swat that we will bring another Mullah regime that will be better than TTP.
And then watch their reaction.
Thus it will be wise for the ANP to not use the old lingo (just like it would be wise for the maulvis in Swat not to use TTP lingo).
May be ANP should make the name little less ethnic. As I said earlier, name of the NWFP is perhaps issue 99 in the top 100 issues facing the region.
There are many more issues that are serious, way serious. And this is high time to focus on them.
Otherwise we’ll be soon a copy of Afghanistan, that gad-awful country that loves to live under foreign boots. At least that’s what we have seen in the last 50 odd years.
It is time to focus on development and education and industrialization of Pakistan and more importantly Pkhawa. Otherwise Talibot warlords will be back much stronger and more menacing.
that is a bit harsh .....actually Pak establishment needs ANP, when they win the war then they will leble them again GHADDAR......
The ANP are part of the Pakistan establishment. Its no longer the 1970's. Whether they accept Pakistan or the current political/administrative set up is a different matter - but they sure enjoy and exploit their positions to the fullest.
Ultimately ones opinion about the renaming can be classed into four arguments: 1) Legal: Whats the mechanism to rename a province? In renaming Faisalabad, Attock etc there was no consultations it was done through decree. The name Kashmir has no association with rivers and neither did Bengal.
2) Political: NWFP is a colonial anamoly which doesn't reflect the wishes of the people of the province who by an overwhelming majority(90%) in 1997 supported the name Pakhtunkhwa.
- I dont know much about the renaming of Faisalabad and Attock but they are not ethnic names. Had Attock been renamed Awan-istan ( Awans are the largest ribe in Attock) or Faisalabad been named Jatt-pur then surely the other tries would have protested. Attock has some historical value too. Kashmir has also been used in the history.
The problem with Pakhtunkhwa is its a new name altogether. That region has never had a name before most probably because it was tribal and it has changed hands a number of times.
- The problem with Pakistan is it still uses the old colonial provincial system. They should have broken the provices down into smaller units so politicians stop using this province card and larger provinces stop usupring the rights of smaller provinces.
Had Afghanistan had 4 provinces based on its 4 main ethnicities today it would have been 4 different kingdoms. Had Pakistan gone through that it would not have survived. The leaders of pakistan need to realise that using an outdated Brityish system that was solely for their benefit is not in the interests of Pakistan or its people.
I think support for the renaming to an ethnic name within pakhtuns has fallen and i dont think 90% of NWFP would have supported Pakhtunkhwa back in 1997 too as NWFP is probably about 70-80% Pakhtun.
The number of educated Pakhtuns who support a neutral name has risen. People are beginning to realise that there are others living amongst them and their views should be taken into account.
I dont believe anything is wrong with an ethnic name at all. There is nothing wrong with calling NWFP Pakhtun-whatever if it did not include Chitral, Hazara, Kohistan and eastern portion of D I Khan where Seraiki is spoken. Idont even have a problem with Pakhtun areas of Balochistan ie Zhob, Pishin, Ziarat, Loralai joining on to form a larger Pakhtun province.
If the province is renamed the next steps will be then to impose everyone in NWFP to learn Pashtu and it will become the language of the Assembly.
It wont just be a province being renamed that will be the first step and that is why many non-Pakhtuns probably reject Pakhtunkhwa. Once it becomes Pakhtunkhwa it will be seen as a pakhtun province and the minorities will lose out.
Ironically the ANP have always complained that Punjab has taken the political/ cultural, economic rights of the smaller provinces. The ANP really needs to listen to its own advice and look at how it has treated minorit areas or other Pakthun areas out of the Peshawar valley even.
Bhai,
you can list all the tribes, and I have personally met big name Khans in Abbotabad region and they do not consider themselves part of Pashtuns.
But this is besides the point.
I say change the name of NWFP, regardless of what goes on in F-ghanistan.
And then more importantly let's all sit together to solve the real problems facing Pakhtoonkhawah in particular and the rest of Pakistan in general.
You need to know what the title "Khan" means and how it is used in Pakistan. Khan is not necessarily a Pashtun name. Khan is used commonly by the Baloch, Sindhis of Baloch/Mughal/Turk/Pakhtun origin, Punjabis belonging to Awan, Mughal, Pakhtun origin, Rajput and some Gujar and Jatts and also by people belonging to Chitral, Gilgit, Hunza side too.
Abbottabad is a predominantly Hindko speaking area. There are many Hindko speaking Pathans too. Although they are of Pakhtun extraction and follow very similar codes to people west of the Indus river, they dont speak Pushto as a home language so therefore would not classify them selves as Pakhtun but Pathan.
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
I don't get the fuss about Puktanwala/istan whatever. Non ethnic groups after all are living in all other provinces of Pakistan so why can't Hazaras and other groups coexist with the majority Pakhtouns in NWFP after its name is changed?
On the other hand, I am not comfortable with Afghania--abode of the Afghans. It might start giving the awful failed state on Pakistan's west some ideas...
Re: NWFP to be renamed Pakhtoonkhwa: Zardari
Making the discussion short, Make it Pakhtunkha and include the tribal areas/agencies in it... names does not make big difference, development makes, change name or not, develop the area, have more schools/universities, Medical facilities, industries... save people from leaving their hometown and moving to other faraway cities and countries in search of proper jobs and sources of income...