New Iraq ' well on way to becoming Islamic state'

New Iraq ’ well on way to becoming Islamic state’

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/29/wirq129.xml

By David Rennie in Washington
29 October 2003
The Daily Telegraph

THE United States is failing in its mission to create a secular,
overtly pro-Western Iraq, a leading adviser to the American
administrator Paul Bremer said yesterday.

Instead, the new, democratic Iraq appears bound to be an Islamic state

  • with an official role for Islam, and Islamic law enshrined in its
    constitution.

That prospect is triggering alarm and opposition from the White House
and the Pentagon, Noah Feldman, a leading American expert in Islamic
law, told The Daily Telegraph.

Dr Feldman served as senior constitutional adviser to the Coalition
Provisional Authority, working closely with Mr Bremer. Returning from
Baghdad this summer, the New York University law professor now works as
an unpaid adviser to the CPA, to the White House, and to different
factions in the Iraqi Governing Council.

“The end constitutional product is very likely to make many people in
the US government unhappy. It’s not going to look the way people
imagined it looking,” said Dr Feldman.

“Any democratically elected Iraqi government is unlikely to be secular,
and unlikely to be pro-Israel. And frankly, moderately unlikely to be
pro-American.”

While these predictions are spreading alarm inside the administration,
Dr Feldman advocates dealing with Islamic democrats.

He argues that Islamic parties will rise anyway, and are most dangerous
when forced underground by secular autocrats. Such views led Pentagon
officials to accuse Dr Feldman of being “soft on Islam”.

"When I tell them these things [Islam and Islamic law] are going to be
in the constitution, people are very concerned about it. They want to
know what can be done to avoid these things. There’s still a hope that
the country will be as secular as possible.

“But frankly nothing in Iraq is going to look the way people imagined.
Maybe if people had taken that on board, they might have felt
differently about the plan for an invasion.”

The hawkish idealists who pushed hardest for regime change in Iraq saw
the fall of Baghdad as the first step towards remaking the Middle East.

In their vision, Iraq would rise up as a democratic, secular, free
market capitalist beacon to its neighbours - guided, at least
initially, by such exiled leaders as Ahmad Chalabi, a secularist and
Pentagon favourite.

In their plan, the country was to be turned into a federation of 18 or
so provinces, preventing such powerful ethnic factions as the Kurds
from setting up autonomous fiefdoms that might split the country apart
and threaten the stability of an already volatile neighbourhood.

Yet the Kurds have made it plain that they expect to emerge with an
autonomous Kurdish region, and will not support any constitution that
would split their territory into mini-provinces, Dr Feldman reported.
Though US allies, the Kurds retain 40,000 men under arms, and have
declined US invitations to disband such militias.

Pentagon officials sent Dr Feldman to Baghdad for his knowledge of
Islamic law. In many ways he was an unlikely candidate: he is a
Democrat, Jewish and still only 32.

One senior administration official declared before the war that the
first foreign policy of a democratic Iraq would be to recognise Israel.

“I don’t know what he was smoking when he said that,” said Dr Feldman.
He argued that Iraqi-Israeli relations were off the radar, as
Washington struggled simply to keep Iraq from slipping into disaster.
Daily Telegraph. UK

Comment:

Intresting views by someone from a certain background. The west has come to realise that no matter how hard they try they cant stop the Islamic revival. Secularism and Islam cannot co-exist maybe in the west it can but in Muslim lands we will implement the Sharia even though the west will be unhappy and we will unify the Islamic lands and one day rival America as a superpower and leading nation who dictates world policy.

In Indonesia there was once a call for an Islamic state after the coup was removed and elections held it was shown that support for such a state was no longer popular. You say "we will implement the Sharia" do you think you speak for all Muslims, that would be very Talibanistic like. Islam and Secularism can co-exist.

Underthedome

Thank you for your reply. Islam is a belief from which systems emanate i.e Islam is not a religion but a complete way of life with its own ruling, punishment, economic sytems etc. which was implemented by an Islamic state from the 6th century Ce up until 1924 in Turkey. Muslims believe in god and also part of their belief is that gods laws must be implemented in society and man made laws is a great sin from the Islamic perspective. Islam is not like christianity where we render unto ceaser what belongs to ceaser and to god what belongs to god. In Islam ceaser has to submit to god. Secularism and Islam cannot co-exist.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Underthedome

Thank you for your reply. Islam is a belief from which systems emanate i.e Islam is not a religion but a complete way of life with its own ruling, punishment, economic sytems etc. which was implemented by an Islamic state from the 6th century Ce up until 1924 in Turkey. Muslims believe in god and also part of their belief is that gods laws must be implemented in society and man made laws is a great sin from the Islamic perspective.

[/QUOTE]

showkot islam gives guidance, does not have ready made laws for all situations. a law saying u cant park on such and such street between 4-6 p.m. is a man made law and is vital to have traffic moving freely during rugh hour..so even with an islamic system laws must be created. The religion gives us some basis, being fair, beung just. not putting ppl thru hardship, etc etc which can help set the tome for creating such laws.

now as far as the "islamic state" goes... whereas there was an islamic state in the prophet's time and immediately afterwards. It did not continue as an islamic state until 1924... the sultans who led the ottoman empire were no different than the royals of any gulf state now..the sultan's son would become teh sultan, unless a brother killed him or something like that..
the various dynasties that came before the ottomans, were not some khliafah either, they were all some sort of monarchies..

Showkot,

Please reference for me a good example of a currently functioning Islamic State that would be the ideal for Iraq to follow.

I think the concept of Islamic state was lost as soon as the monarchies and Sultans took over and they have done enough damage already. This damage is not only limited to Islam as a deen but Islam as a governing system. At current time the Islamic state is not that relevant anymore. The Islamic concept of Emirates as to belong to a wider state would make more sense, kind of EU or a federation. But for that there has to be a common factor other than just Islam as a religion, may be democracy or economic viability.

Until there is something very radical happening in any of the muslim majority countries, the Khilafah seems very difficult.

Pir Ji, the concept of legislating law in Islam is such that Shura cannot legislate any law that would contradict a direct ruling of Quran and Sunnah.

Ohioguy

There is no Islamic state in the world today and muslims all over the world are working to re-establish one. The model for iraq to follow would be to refer to the Islamic sources for their legislation and not democracy.

Fraudz

Yes Islam gives us guidence on many issues. The particular law you mentioned about traffic flow and many other laws which are based upon a rational observation can be followed in an Islamic state because they dont contradict the Islamic texts and not because they are man made.

When was the khilafah destroyed according to you? The issue of Bayah was abused by many khalifs who passed it onto their sons, but what was in fact implemented was Islamic law, therefore it was the khilafah, because ruling was from Islamic sources. But none the less if you think it ended before 1924, fine. but the issue today is that there is no khilafah and we need to work to re-establish one.

MiniMe

The Islamic state is the system of ruling decreed by Allah for all times and places, because how else do we as muslims expect to solve our problems in this day and age ? Some would say democracy, but i would question them is this what Allah ordered us to rule according to? When the prophet Muhammed saw established the Islamic state in medina he ruled according to Islam and not democracy which existed in the world at that time. Also what is the purpose of Quran today as you understand it? Is it a book for nice recitation or a source of ruling and conducting our lifes affairs?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Also what is the purpose of Quran today as you understand it? Is it a book for nice recitation or a source of ruling and conducting our lifes affairs?
[/QUOTE]
A spiritual guide? The time for rule by religous dogma is a thing of the (distant) past. Modern man wants to interpret religous texts for himself, not by a government. Western man demanded it several hundered years ago through the Reform movement and the Age of Enlightenment. Religous empires failed for a reason. Nothing has changed (actually man has futher progressed) to imagine that religous governments will ever come back.

Feldman Denies Writing Report](2003 October)

Informed Comment received an email from Professor Noah Feldman saying that he had not, as al-Zaman alleged, written a report for the CPA on the likely form of the Iraqi constitution. It appears that al-Zaman was summarizing an article in the Daily Telegraph, and mistook a few oral comments for a position paper.

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=101683

The article said,

"the new, democratic Iraq appears bound to be an Islamic state – with an official role for Islam, and Islamic law enshrined in its constitution. That prospect is triggering alarm and opposition from the White House and the Pentagon, Noah Feldman, a leading American expert in Islamic law, said. “The end constitutional product is very likely to make many people in the US government unhappy. It’s not going to look the way people imagined it looking,” said Dr Feldman. “Any democratically elected Iraqi government is unlikely to be secular, and unlikely to be pro-Israel. And frankly, moderately unlikely to be pro- American”.

Professor Feldman also points out that his Near East degree is from Harvard, not Princeton. He adds by email, “Although I did advise the CPA, and do think that we are headed for a state in which Islam plays a constitutional role…

Informed Comment regrets the imprecisions in the earlier report.

The earlier report he just referred to is here.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
Underthedome
In Islam ceaser has to submit to god. Secularism and Islam cannot co-exist.
[/QUOTE]

Then you should change it. Or else it's doomed

You vying for the next Bush speech writer position? If so dumb down on the diction and you’ll do just fine.

Originally posted by showkot: *
**Yes Islam gives us guidence on many issues. The particular law you mentioned about traffic flow and many other laws which are based upon a rational observation can be followed in an Islamic state because they dont contradict the Islamic texts and not because they are man made. *

ahh and that was an example, therefore there is a need for manmade laws to deal with challenges of everyday life for which we can seek guidance from religious principles but there is not a clear rule. Exactly my point.

*When was the khilafah destroyed according to you? *

after khulfa e rashideen there were hints of a real khilafah, as during the time of Umar bin abdulaziz, but other than that it was a dynastic rule for the most part.

** The issue of Bayah was abused by many khalifs who passed it onto their sons, but what was in fact implemented was Islamic law**

Are you suggesting that the Ottomans implemented islamic law? :) when teh entire basis of the government was monarchy..thus islamic law could be implemented without having a khalifah..a monarch can do it, and a minister or president can do it right?

therefore it was the khilafah, because ruling was from Islamic sources.

how was it a khilafah when there was no khalifah? but a sultan... it was a monarchy, a syultanate..an empire..which had some islamic laws..

** But none the less if you think it ended before 1924, fine. but the issue today is that there is no khilafah and we need to work to re-establish one.**

sure, and that could be in teh form of industrial, technologically advanced, progressive coaltion of muslim countries which select a ruling council and a leader..or whetver form, but just having one border and one ruler..no matter whattype is not goignt o do jackunless tons of internal problems, issues and weaknesses are not resolved, all the way from intolerance and bigotry out of ignorance and extremism fueled by powers who have used that to their own gains, to social injustice and competing agendas of diff entitities..e.g. Iran and KSA's chess gainst one another..

Showkot

"There is no Islamic state in the world today and muslims all over the world are working to re-establish one. The model for iraq to follow would be to refer to the Islamic sources for their legislation and not democracy."

Precisely my point.

Frankly, Communism sounded real good. On paper, everyone working together, owning everything together, ruling the nation together, man,
Communism was a utopia! Unfortunately, Stalinism, and Castro-ism, and Juche, and everyother offshoot of the Communist ideal has been nothing other than the excuse for dictatorship, and a totalitarian, repressive regime. Chinese communism has survived because the leaders there adapted and survived, but there are huge human rights issues there, and only through free market reforms has the country survived.

I admire your enthusiasm for an Islamic state. However the concept of "Muslim Lands", "Muslim States", and "Sharia Law" sound vaguely like South Africa. Don't get me wrong, the ideals of Islam are noble and worthy. The rigid nature of the proposed implementation, the lack of flexibility where other religions are involved, and the lack of understanding and tolerance and moderation will doom a Muslim State. Frankly, as I have heard the Ottoman Empire described, those of other religions were tolerated but subjugated. Protected but repressed.
The world has moved on since the fall of the empire, and frankly, adapting Islam to Modern times, and the demands of modern peoples is a challenge that should come before the formation of another true Islamic state, not after suffering another Taliban-like failure.

Until I see an Islamic State that is in full bloom, that is tolerant, fair and just, I will assume that all you want is another Iran, where the priviledged few cloak their power hungry nature in the robes of religion. Most of the "Islamists" I have heard desire dominion and power, which is exactly what Iraq just got rid of........

The Secular Extremists don't you just love them!

Mention the Words Islamic state and they get into panic stations and they lose there heads and saying oh taleban and bin ladin because they have got nothing to offer except these insults because there own systems of secularism and democracy are rejected for there shallowness and failure to satisfy the muslim ummah.

Inshallah the islamic state will be established which is an inevitability no matter how hard the kuffar and there agents try.

Reading the financial impacts of the establishment of the islamic state on the west make intresting reading, i have a tip for the kuffar who have stocks and shares, it is recommended that you invest in stocks of toilet paper whose price will inevitably sky rocket in the west!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Mention the Words Islamic state and they get into panic stations and they lose there heads and saying oh taleban and bin ladin because they have got nothing to offer except these insults because there own systems of secularism and democracy are rejected for there shallowness and failure to satisfy the muslim ummah.

Inshallah the islamic state will be established which is an inevitability no matter how hard the kuffar and there agents try.

Reading the financial impacts of the establishment of the islamic state on the west make intresting reading, i have a tip for the kuffar who have stocks and shares, it is recommended that you invest in stocks of toilet paper whose price will inevitably sky rocket in the west!
[/QUOTE]
Actually it is the proponents of an Islamic state that have got nothing to offer. The only governments that have come close to an Islamic state have been a travesty to justice and human rights. Please enlighten us - where and when has there been anything resembling this wonderful Islamic state? (and examples from hundreds of years ago are not reality and do not count). They have been and will continue to be failures. If you consider that an insult, so be it. It is the truth, unlike this continual fantasay of some great future Islamic (or any religous) state. I have a tip for the extremists who really think this is going to happen - put your energy and "pious" beliefs behind something that stands a chance in this world - like educating and feeding your people. That is where the shallowness and failure to satisfy the ummah comes from.

Semihole

My point is proven

You cannot even stand the notion that 2 billion muslims want an islamic state! despite all the west attempts by installing puppet rulers

You go on about no islamic state why is that, from indonesia to turkey the islamic parties calling for an islamic state they have rejected Secualr nonsense and demcrohypocrisy time and time again. Even when they are forced at gunpoint in some cases to use western politics they have rejected democracy and secualrism!

It is the so called democractic system that is a failure they have nothing to offer where you have riots on the streets of New York and Seattle and even last month in Rome your own people rejecting your corrupt system where the rich get fatter the ordinary joe public suffers!

If islam got nothing to offer than very simply mind your own business and stay out of muslim lands, But that is not gonna happen because it is the very reason islam and the islamic state which is an inevitability will end your intrests and end the explotation of our lands 34 million in poverty in the states what a disgrace in the richest nation on earth and you want to lecture us on feeding our people take a look in your own back!

I have a tip America Regime should mind its own business and stay in the states then we have no issue with you!

ak47 where do you get off saying 2 billion Muslims want an Islamic state that is an outright lie. As I stated before the most populated Muslim country shows that the vast majority do not want an Islamic state imposed upon them. Stick with an Islamic household and neighborhoods, it not going much further than that in today’s world without a major change in what that state itself would be.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Semihole

My point is proven

You cannot even stand the notion that 2 billion muslims want an islamic state! despite all the west attempts by installing puppet rulers

You go on about no islamic state why is that, from indonesia to turkey the islamic parties calling for an islamic state they have rejected Secualr nonsense and demcrohypocrisy time and time again. Even when they are forced at gunpoint in some cases to use western politics they have rejected democracy and secualrism!

It is the so called democractic system that is a failure they have nothing to offer where you have riots on the streets of New York and Seattle and even last month in Rome your own people rejecting your corrupt system where the rich get fatter the ordinary joe public suffers!

If islam got nothing to offer than very simply mind your own business and stay out of muslim lands, But that is not gonna happen because it is the very reason islam and the islamic state which is an inevitability will end your intrests and end the explotation of our lands 34 million in poverty in the states what a disgrace in the richest nation on earth and you want to lecture us on feeding our people take a look in your own back!

I have a tip America Regime should mind its own business and stay in the states then we have no issue with you!
[/QUOTE]

I have a tip for you: stick to the facts and don't let your emotions take over your posts as they are not honest.

  1. There are only 1.2 billion Muslims, not the 2 billion you keep posting.
  2. As UTD pointed out, the people are not clamoring for an Islamic state, fundamentalist religous parties are.
  3. You quote riots in the streets as proof the democratic system doesn't work. It is actually proof that it does work. A Muslim state would not allow their people that freedom as it is a staple of democracy.
  4. You like to mention 34 million Americans in poverty. In reality the those 34 million people live like kings compared to the poor masses in Muslim countries.

No one is saying Islam has nothing to offer, only that it (or any other religion) will fail at empire-building in the modern and educated world. As I said above - the only governments that have come close to an Islamic state have been a travesty to justice and human rights. Is there an honest answer to this question -- where and when has there been anything resembling this wonderful Islamic state? (examples from hundreds of years ago do not count). Never mind an empire, are there even any state or municipal examples?