Muslim brotherhood v Pakistani nationalism?

Thank you, and I agree with you. My post was not a diversion though, it was a reminder.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I meant,..my point about pashtuns was a diversion from the topic.

The main point is, what is the alternative, should the Pakistani government agree to support the policies of another Nation..solely because it is Muslim?

I didn't support the Taliban, but I felt the level of Musharrafs support for the US is wrong. At the same time what alternative did he have? The US had by implication said if they weren't provided bases they would take them by force. While a US blockade would have triggered Pakistans economic collapse, and perhaps been used as a pretext for an Indian invasion.

In the end one can support fellow Muslim states, but it is very hard to support states led by tyrannical regimes like Saddam or the Taliban.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I always suspected Rajputfury was an Indian lol, he must have been sent by Raw to undermine the Pakistani community lol ;)

Oddly jinnah was a Pan Islamist, he ordered equipment to Egypt during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war (which was neevr returned) and sent troops to help the Indonesians.

I also remember Palestinains celebrating when Pakistan tested it's nculear weapon...and the Saudis offering hundreds of millions of dollars to Pakistan in pre paid oil shipments...to save the economy from collapse.

On it's own Pan Islamism is nothing unles individual Muslim states also stand for themselves. You can't expect others to stand for a nation or a people ...if a nation is not willing to stand for itself.

The Pashtun subject is a diversion..but put Islam in front of Pashtuns or loyalty to the state or even own people they'll choose Islam every time. Historically...that's the way it's been with us,..voting for the MMA or supporting Pakistan ..despite the pleas of the Congress.
[/QUOTE]

Zakk, thanks for exposing me for the RAW frontman that I am ;)

he Quaid called for Pakistan to be a progressive Islamic nation...Meaning that Pakistan would not give up on our minorities and in terms of Interntl Relations, give due considerations to our Muslim brothers. We have done that..Does one need to be reminded of King Farouks comments towards Pakistan? Or the cozy Nehru-Nasser relationship?

It's funny that you mentioned the Palestinians cheering for Pakistan, but when was the last time they spoke on Kashmir? Are Kashmiris not Muslims? or rather not "Muslim" enough? The Saudi contributions and support has been constant and Pakistan has always tried to repay whenever possible, through military, technological cooperation. Lets just say that their infantile Nuke program is repackaged Pakistani expertise. Basically, those Muslism countries that have met us atleast half way has received our backing throughout. Now for this to be true for the entire Muslim world, is it asking too much if they support Pakistan as well?

I agree with your statement regarding the individual states standing up for themselves. Recently Israel attacked Syrian "terror camps" and the joint arab response was toothless as ever. Here Pakistan has faced hostility from a neighbor 4X in size and it still stands while the Arabs have been unsuccessful in their feeble attempts to reach a settlement to create a Palestinian state. Remember, Pakistan was created out of British India...Why did the Arab world lose Palestine after it was created from British Palestine?

What do you mean Pakistan has faced hostility from neighbor 4x size? If you mean Kargil, wasn't it Pakistan under then general Musharaf who started the whole thing?

^ I see so siachen and 1971 were Pakistani invasions?

RF: Nasser's dislike for Pakistan may have had to do with the Suez Canal crisis, pakistan supported the British invasion. My point is you don't stand for what's right in the hope of a reward. If you stand for it, for some reward you aren't doing it on principle but for self interest.

After much careful deliberation, religious texts will be allowed to be discussed only in relation to the topic of this thread, but this will be monitored very closely to ensure that they are relevant.

Pakistan Affairs Forum Moderators

“And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allaah (i.e. this Qur’aan), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allaah’s Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allaah makes His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:103]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
^ I see so siachen and 1971 were Pakistani invasions?

[/QUOTE]

Wasn't 1971 started by Bangladesh (E.Pakistan)? How do you say India did it?

RajputFury , about ten posts back I had addressed you directly; I don’t know if you have deliberately ignored my post or just didn’t notice it. I am going to address it to you again directly. You may ignore it again like an ostrich who buries his head in sand thinking that since ‘I can’t see it – it is not there.’ But keep it in mind that the viewers of this thread will surely notice that you are ducking the issue.

In my last post to you I had a quote of Mr. Jinnah. I am going to quote it here again below.

[QUOTE]
"We are a nation," he affirmed, three years before the birth of Pakistan, "with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and tradition, aptitude and ambitions--- in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life."
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Let’s analyze this statement.

Distinctive Culture and Civilization…….Muslim for more that thousand years.

Language and Literature…….Muslim Literature to quite an extant.

Names and Nomenclature……..Muslim

Sense of values and Proportion………by large Islamic

Legal laws and Moral codes……Legal Laws – hotch potch / Moral Codes – Muslim-ish

Customs and Calendar……..Customs - Muslim to quite an extant

History and Tradition………Islamic + Local

Aptitude and Ambitions………? I hope Islamic

Distinctive outlook on Life…………. For vast majority Islamic (I hope)

Apart from language and local customs all the above we share with all fellow Muslims whether they are in Africa, Europe or any where else.

Will you not take Salauddin Al Ayubi, who was a Kurd, or Tariq bin Ziyad, an Arab, as your heroes like any other Muslim?

You are talking about a few Arab leaders who did not support Pakistan, like King Farouk of Egypt or Yasser Arafat or Nasser? Do you think that these people truly represent their people? They are not/were not popular even with their own people except for Nasser. So are you going to disassociate yourself from the Muslim brotherhood just because of a few ‘rotten leaders’?

[QUOTE]
Or the cozy Nehru-Nasser relationship?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe from Nasser’s point of view Pakistan being in American camp was ‘threat to him’.

[QUOTE]
Why did the Arab world lose Palestine after it was created from British Palestine?
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What happened in 1971? Did it not happen in Pakistan the majority of ‘Pakistanis’ opted out of ‘Pakistani Nationalism’? (I know there are very many reasons for it but the fact remains). The Arab world ‘lost’ Palestine because of stupidity of its leaders. On what grounds did Pakistan lose half of itself? Please don’t forget that Jerusalem belongs to Pakistanis as well as it belongs to all the Muslims.

You talk of Pakistani Nationalism? What good has it done for those poor and desperate Pakistanis (Biharis – stuck in Bangladesh)? For thirty odd years they have begged and pleaded to be brought back ‘home’ but Pakistani Nationalism has got cold feet and just has not acknowledged it’s own people back. They have never let Pakistan down; but Pakistani Nationalism certainly has let them down. Sadly, history is witness to it.

As overwhelmingly Pakistanis are Muslim, I will quote a few of Hadith of Rasool (saw) where he has addressed the ‘Disease of Nationalism’. I am sure as Pakistani first and then a Muslim you will regard his sayings with utmost repect as nothing but the Truth.

The Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,"He is not one us who calls for Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights forAsabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah." Abu Da'wud

"There are indeed people who boast of their dead ancestors;but in the sight of Allah they are more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose . Behold, Allah has removed from you the arrogance of the Time of Jahiliyyah (Ignorance) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but an Allah-fearing believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are the children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust." At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud

"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire *If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." * . [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

"The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim],

"The faithful are like one man: if his eyes suffers, his whole body suffers." [Muslim],

"An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam's children and Adam was created out of clay." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa]

"Every Muslim is a brother to a Muslim, neither wronging him nor allowing him to be wronged. And if anyone helps his brother in need, Allah will help him in his own need; and if anyone removes a calamity from [another] Muslim, Allah will remove from him some of the calamities of the Day of Resurrection; and if anyone shields [another] Muslim from disgrace, Allah will shield him from the disgrace on the Day of Resurrection." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abd Allah ibnUmar]

So brother RajputFury, I hope that you are not going to disagree with what Rasool Allah (saw) has stated. Because Allah (swt) stated the following in the Holy Quran.

"It is not for a believer (male or female) that when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any choice in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in plain error." [Surah Al-Ahzab (33): ayah 36]

And those who still uphold nationalism, remember what Allah (swt) says, "And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials,afflictions,...) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them." [Surah An-Nur (24): ayah 63]

If you look around you can’t help but notice that all the countries are forming alliances and large National Unions. Here in Europe the countries that had fought two bloody wars within matters of thirty years and had hundreds of year’s rivalry have joined hands to form a strong union. Now they are busy absorbing the new countries on the Eastern flank. No country can now survive in isolation. Ultimately Pakistan will have to join other countries for its own long term survival. Is it not better to join up with it’s fellow Muslims with whom Pakistan has so much in common for the betterment of whole Muslim brotherhood?

*But if it’s still Pakistani Nationalism for you, than be aware that Rasool Allah (saw) has said that in Allah’s (swt) sight such a person is more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose (Dung Beetle). *

I hope that you care to respond to this and my previous post.

.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
^ I see so siachen and 1971 were Pakistani invasions?

RF: Nasser's dislike for Pakistan may have had to do with the Suez Canal crisis, pakistan supported the British invasion. My point is you don't stand for what's right in the hope of a reward. If you stand for it, for some reward you aren't doing it on principle but for self interest.
[/QUOTE]

Zakk, I completely understand your point. My issue here (and I outlined it before) is all about the return of our "investment" in supporting these countries. If you want to call it self interest then I agree. I do not see self intersest as a bad thing in the realm of geopolitics and international relations. We have made many principled stands but have gotten burned for it. If a Muslim nation doesnt support us, I don't care anymore, however do not expect me or anyone else to support them as well. Pakistan to me embodies the last stronghold of Islam in SA. Pakistan came about from the struggles of many great people and was borne out of the ashes of the degenerative Mughal Empire/Muslim hegemony. So many times has our existance been threatened, and I am not exaggerating in stating that we have stood alone oin facing those dangers. Sure KSA, Indonesia and many other Muslim nations have supported us, and I would never want to be ungrateful towards them. But the issue here is about the Iraqs, Syrias, PAs of the Muslim world, who have openly disregarded us and our Kashmiri brothers.

We stand united in our stance for the determination of the desires of our Kashmiris, with whom we share RELIGION, culture, race and many other attributes. We see ourselves as big brothers of the Kashmiris, now tell me, if your brother is insulted by your so called ally (or someone you support), will you forget your brother? I sure wouldn't. I have much sympathy for ALL the Muslims worldwide, I feel the pain of the Palestinians, Chechnians, Afghans etc...however if they don't care for the Kashmiris..their Muslim brothers...then I am going to help my family first. I do not even care if Kashmiris decide to become independent, my support for them will never be compromised under this farce of a so called "Muslim Ummah"

Let the Arabs unite and accept Pakistanis as their equal Muslim brothers, then I would be the first Pakistani to join them :)

^^ RajputFury - You ducked again!

Pakistan came about from the struggles of many great people and was borne out of the ashes of the degenerative Mughal Empire/Muslim hegemony.

Interesting so you think the entire Muslim rule and mughals
were rotten. So whose rule was the best. The hindu rajputana
empire. The so called great rajput hindu king lost. Grow up.
Its all over.
Pata naheee what r u trying to prove. Muslim tum ko pasand nahe.
Pathan tum ko pasand naheee. tum ko pasand kia haa.
Your last posts clearly shows that you like Hindu affiliations.
And according to you. You are proud of your Hindu heritage.
Khuda tum per raham kareee.