yara, I’m glad that he’s shown his understanding of complex geopolitical affairs, by terming anyone not agreeing with him as an Indian. I think people like him show the Pakistani divide between the majority and this small yet vocal majority…too bad that minority is made up of vakhra types 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Sultan
the challenge is when they become conflicting priorities, could you support a group while that group is working against you.
The question is also more of a primary responsibility, starting with family, neighbourhood, community etc..
the examples given were of peopel like saddam and arafat who have not supported pakistan the way they should have if we start talking about muslim bhai chara...
There is a difference in undermining a muslim brother, or helping him after u have helped yourself.
If Pakistan does something which is in its interests but does not undermine others, I do not see it as being wrong at all.
P.S. all this talk about pakhtoon unity.. where does that leave the non pakhtoon people like the uzbeks.. so we divide today on ethnic lines whats next tribal lines? the end state is every man for himself :)
[/QUOTE]
^
Fraudz encapsulates my thoughts exactly. Why are the "oppressed" Palestinians cozying up to India? Why do the Arabs not give two cents to Kashmir? Why has the so called Muslim world abandoned Kashmir and/or Pakistan? Pakistan recognizes the Palestinian Authority, North Cyprus, Chechniya and other non existant countries..Are we asking too much if we bring up Kashmir?
This is not a one way street, international diplomacy demands a quid pro quid. I do not believe that getting repeatedly burned by the so called Muslim Ummah, does us any good...Pakistan is seen as a country of chumps who throw their support blindly behind Muslim causes.
I support Pakistanis because they are my people...not just based on ethnicity, language or culture but because they have always fought against impossible odds and by the grace of Allah, emerged as victorious. Sure we have suffered set backs and difficulties along the way, but the development and growth, the talent of the people in surpassed. Here is a country without an oil wealth, a little more than a half century old, yet has joined the mantle of leadership and power of the Middle East/South Asia. In the ME zone it is Iran, Turkey that are trhe only countries that aren't taken as a joke. In South Asia, against a neighbor nearly 10X in population and size, Pakistan has stood has ground and not become a quasi satellite like Bangladesh or Nepal.
If we talk about an Islamic nation or unity between Muslims, why are there so many Arab nations when they supposedly share the same race, religion and language? Countries like Pakistan are multiethnic yet still together...Why can't the Arabs do the same? Why is the Arab league a joke? I'll be the first one to advocate joining this greater Muslim nation, but why must we put our necks on the line everytime for this one sided unity?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ZulfiOKC: *
Rehman1 ji, dont try to side track the basic/valid discussion by asking me juvenile questions, like how much time I have spent in Pakistan, it's none of your concern, this is a discussion forum, where people from different walks of life visit and express their views on different concepts/ideas without passing juvenile comments, this is not cafe or general. As far as your comment goes about me not knowing the history of the Land of Pure, that's an assumption on your part, and far from reality, and once again shows that you are deliberately trying to side track the valid issues on this thread by posting personnal attacks. As far as me being from India, I'm not even going to reply to such a stupid question, go search all my previous posts and then decide for yourself, where I come from. By the way, welcome to Gupshup...
P.S. Benazir and Nawaz were PM's of our Land of Pure, but we all know how patriotic they were and how badly they raped our country, hence proving you wrong, that you dont become patriotic Pakistani by default just by living in Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Truth always is HURTFUL.
If you’re a victim of the Pakistan Studies, then this article by Ayesha Jalal may cure you.
The only thing that unites the muslims the world over is not the food they eat
its not the clothes they wear
its not the flag they wave
its not the land they live on
Its the ideology and belief in islam that unites us nothing else matters!
United we stand divided we fall!
And those ideologies must cover those mentioned above. Coz islam emphasizes on all of these except flag/land
RF
Thank you, I thought i was the only one who was thinking along those lines.
I am not opposed to muslim bhai chara... not at all, but not one way.
The govts..we alreayd talked about no support for us but dupport for India by arafat, saddam etc..
the media..press..tv..I challenged ppl before as well, pick up arab news papers.. any country..and look at how much attention kashmir gets, or heck even other non arab areas ..and its not even close. look at TV..do it for a few days..and u will see the gap..
the people..pro palestine rally's in pak vs pro kashmir rallies anywhere in the arab world..yes they have dictators, but lets compare to the time when zia was in power..there were rallies..heck how many rallies have even palestinians held for their kashmiri brothers...or bosnians..or chechens..
the misery of some of these groups is used alongside the palestinian issue to give it a worldwide muslim issue, but the fact remains.. the other issues are treated like stepchildren..always havealways will be.
atleast when we look out for our interest we dont do it at the expense of other "bhai's" well being..we dont intentionally undermine them
I always suspected Rajputfury was an Indian lol, he must have been sent by Raw to undermine the Pakistani community lol ;)
Oddly jinnah was a Pan Islamist, he ordered equipment to Egypt during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war (which was neevr returned) and sent troops to help the Indonesians.
I also remember Palestinains celebrating when Pakistan tested it's nculear weapon...and the Saudis offering hundreds of millions of dollars to Pakistan in pre paid oil shipments...to save the economy from collapse.
On it's own Pan Islamism is nothing unles individual Muslim states also stand for themselves. You can't expect others to stand for a nation or a people ...if a nation is not willing to stand for itself.
The Pashtun subject is a diversion..but put Islam in front of Pashtuns or loyalty to the state or even own people they'll choose Islam every time. Historically...that's the way it's been with us,..voting for the MMA or supporting Pakistan ..despite the pleas of the Congress.
listen to all the songs of 1965 war.you will understand the
mind set of Pak people. most of the songs to rally the troops
and the people were religious.and it worked.
on the other hand we lost E.Pak. Some people decided to play
race card"nationalism".
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I always suspected Rajputfury was an Indian lol, he must have been sent by Raw to undermine the Pakistani community lol ;)
Oddly jinnah was a Pan Islamist, he ordered equipment to Egypt during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war (which was neevr returned) and sent troops to help the Indonesians.
I also remember Palestinains celebrating when Pakistan tested it's nculear weapon...and the Saudis offering hundreds of millions of dollars to Pakistan in pre paid oil shipments...to save the economy from collapse.
On it's own Pan Islamism is nothing unles individual Muslim states also stand for themselves. You can't expect others to stand for a nation or a people ...if a nation is not willing to stand for itself.
The Pashtun subject is a diversion..but put Islam in front of Pashtuns or loyalty to the state or even own people they'll choose Islam every time. Historically...that's the way it's been with us,..voting for the MMA or supporting Pakistan ..despite the pleas of the Congress.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent reply.
Oddly jinnah was a Pan Islamist, he ordered equipment to Egypt during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war (which was neevr returned) and sent troops to help the Indonesians.
Do you have more information about this topic.
in the end nationality/border previals. Problem lies within..Dishonesty the most
"For a time they came forth as the lovers of the poor, protectors of the weak, and well wishers of the unfortunate. Sometimes to fulfill their evil aims they have laid claim to prophethood like other false prophets. Sometimes they called themselves educators, teachers, and benefactors of the community. But among whatever people they appeared, and whatever guise or name they bore, they became – because of their evil premises and false principles, their false teachings, deadly views, and fatal sayings – the cause of the decline and collapse of that people and the annihilation of that community. They destroyed the social order of those peoples and scattered their members. "
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
^
Fraudz encapsulates my thoughts exactly. Why are the "oppressed" Palestinians cozying up to India? Why do the Arabs not give two cents to Kashmir? Why has the so called Muslim world abandoned Kashmir and/or Pakistan? Pakistan recognizes the Palestinian Authority, North Cyprus, Chechniya and other non existant countries..Are we asking too much if we bring up Kashmir?
This is not a one way street, international diplomacy demands a quid pro quid. I do not believe that getting repeatedly burned by the so called Muslim Ummah, does us any good...Pakistan is seen as a country of chumps who throw their support blindly behind Muslim causes.
I support Pakistanis because they are my people...not just based on ethnicity, language or culture but because they have always fought against impossible odds and by the grace of Allah, emerged as victorious. Sure we have suffered set backs and difficulties along the way, but the development and growth, the talent of the people in surpassed. Here is a country without an oil wealth, a little more than a half century old, yet has joined the mantle of leadership and power of the Middle East/South Asia. In the ME zone it is Iran, Turkey that are trhe only countries that aren't taken as a joke. In South Asia, against a neighbor nearly 10X in population and size, Pakistan has stood has ground and not become a quasi satellite like Bangladesh or Nepal.
If we talk about an Islamic nation or unity between Muslims, why are there so many Arab nations when they supposedly share the same race, religion and language? Countries like Pakistan are multiethnic yet still together...Why can't the Arabs do the same? Why is the Arab league a joke? I'll be the first one to advocate joining this greater Muslim nation, but why must we put our necks on the line everytime for this one sided unity?
[/QUOTE]
RajputFury
[QUOTE]
If we talk about an Islamic nation or unity between Muslims, why are there so many Arab nations when they supposedly share the same race, religion and language? Countries like Pakistan are multiethnic yet still together...Why can't the Arabs do the same? Why is the Arab league a joke? I'll be the first one to advocate joining this greater Muslim nation, but why must we put our necks on the line everytime for this one sided unity?
[/QUOTE]
Isn’t there a hadith (I don’t have a ready reference – I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me can provide it) where Rasool Allah (saw) once when sitting with his blessed Companions (raa), smiled when looking eastwards. On inquiring of his Companions for the reason of his smiling, he said that he felt a cool breeze from the East. Since the blessed Companions had not felt ‘that cool breeze’ they asked him if this cool breeze was exclusively for him.
He replied that you, the Arabs, will take this religion of Islam to your brothers in the East (He pointed towards East (Iran, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh etc.). Later, you, the Arabs, will return to Jahiliyyah and Assabiyyah and these brothers of yours from the East will return the favour (of Islam) to you (the Arabs) and will teach you (Islam).
Allama Iqbal has alluded to this hadith in one of his poems praising the ‘Indian Sub-Continent’.
The Arab world is led by most corrupt and rotten to the core leadership. Neither are they Islamic nor Nationalists but five star ‘tribalists’. They are there only for themselves and their tribe, they care less for the 'lesser' tribes in their own 'sphere of influence' – same as the Quraish were in the time of Jahiliyyah.
All the present Arabs leaders (also including leaders of other Muslim countries) are far away from Islam, in fact are severely allergic to Islam.
The people of all the Muslim countries have same feelings for each other. Did not Arab masses show their feelings during the Bosnian War, Kosovo War, Chechnya War, Afghan War, etc.? Rest assured that they have same feelings for Pakistan and Kashmir.
Don’t look at the Arab Governments – every body knows that they are pathetic! The Arab nation was honoured when they 'carried' Islam and are humilated ever since they 'abandoned' Islam.
[QUOTE]
Before you Islamists go off and try to brush aside my views, don't forget that I too am a believer in Islam (a Deobandi in fact). However I will never push my belief system down the throats of people of Pakistan. First come to a consensus on whose Muslim before you even start talking about my Fatherland.
[/QUOTE]
There is a big contradiction in this statement of yours. Here you are stating that you are believer in Islam (I’m not doubting you at all and it does not matter which school of thought you prefer). As a believer you are bound to believe that Islamic ideology is supreme. Rasool Allah (saw) has commanded us (Muslims) to carry Islam to every body (of course NOT pushing it down the throats of people).
So how come you are not advocating for Islam but for nationalism?
Prophet Muhammad (saw), said: "The Muslim Ummah is a unique ummah among the whole of mankind: Their land is one, their War is one, their Peace is one, their Honor is one and their Trust is one."(Imam Ahmed).
Keeping the above Hadith in mind, show me where there is scope for nationalism?
[QUOTE]
First come to a consensus on whose Muslim before you even start talking about my Fatherland.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s better if you refer this to the first good Deobandi Aalim of your choice to clarify this point for you. I specifically said Deobandi Aalim as you will not have any ‘trouble’ in believing in his ruling. For a good measure have a second and third opinion as well.
Would you please care to share these rulings with Us?
I have got this quotation of Jinnah:
"We are a nation," he affirmed, three years before the birth of Pakistan, "with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and tradition, aptitude and ambitions--- in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life."
The above clearly puts Pakistan into the concept of Muslim Ummah even before it came in to being. I’m sure there must be great relevant quotations of Alaama Iqbal affirming this.
A Muslim advocating for Nationalism above Islamic brotherhood is as strange as a vegetarian counting the blessings of eating meat.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *A Muslim advocating for Nationalism above Islamic brotherhood is as strange as a vegetarian counting the blessings of eating meat.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you :)
I'm going to re-use this line in future.....
^^ No copyrights :). You are welcome brother.
Please elaborate, what do you mean by diversion, diversion of the topic, Pakistani unity or Islamic unity?
The rest I care not to reply because they have obviously gone soft in their comments. Like I said, sweet reminder.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
The Pashtun subject is a diversion..but put Islam in front of Pashtuns or loyalty to the state or even own people they'll choose Islam every time. Historically...that's the way it's been with us,..voting for the MMA or supporting Pakistan ..despite the pleas of the Congress.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
RajputFury
Isn’t there a hadith (I don’t have a ready reference – I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me can provide it) where Rasool Allah (saw) once when sitting with his blessed Companions (raa), smiled when looking eastwards. On inquiring of his Companions for the reason of his smiling, he said that he felt a cool breeze from the East. Since the blessed Companions had not felt ‘that cool breeze’ they asked him if this cool breeze was exclusively for him.
He replied that you, the Arabs, will take this religion of Islam to your brothers in the East (He pointed towards East (Iran, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh etc.). Later, you, the Arabs, will return to Jahiliyyah and Assabiyyah and these brothers of yours from the East will return the favour (of Islam) to you (the Arabs) and will teach you (Islam).
Allama Iqbal has alluded to this hadith in one of his poems praising the ‘Indian Sub-Continent’.
The Arab world is led by most corrupt and rotten to the core leadership. Neither are they Islamic nor Nationalists but five star ‘tribalists’. They are there only for themselves and their tribe, they care less for the 'lesser' tribes in their own 'sphere of influence' – same as the Quraish were in the time of Jahiliyyah.
All the present Arabs leaders (also including leaders of other Muslim countries) are far away from Islam, in fact are severely allergic to Islam.
The people of all the Muslim countries have same feelings for each other. Did not Arab masses show their feelings during the Bosnian War, Kosovo War, Chechnya War, Afghan War, etc.? Rest assured that they have same feelings for Pakistan and Kashmir.
Don’t look at the Arab Governments – every body knows that they are pathetic! The Arab nation was honoured when they 'carried' Islam and are humilated ever since they 'abandoned' Islam.
There is a big contradiction in this statement of yours. Here you are stating that you are believer in Islam (I’m not doubting you at all and it does not matter which school of thought you prefer). As a believer you are bound to believe that Islamic ideology is supreme. Rasool Allah (saw) has commanded us (Muslims) to carry Islam to every body (of course NOT pushing it down the throats of people).
So how come you are not advocating for Islam but for nationalism?
Prophet Muhammad (saw), said: "The Muslim Ummah is a unique ummah among the whole of mankind: Their land is one, their War is one, their Peace is one, their Honor is one and their Trust is one."(Imam Ahmed).
Keeping the above Hadith in mind, show me where there is scope for nationalism?
I think it’s better if you refer this to the first good Deobandi Aalim of your choice to clarify this point for you. I specifically said Deobandi Aalim as you will not have any ‘trouble’ in believing in his ruling. For a good measure have a second and third opinion as well.
Would you please care to share these rulings with Us?
I have got this quotation of Jinnah:
"We are a nation," he affirmed, three years before the birth of Pakistan, "with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and tradition, aptitude and ambitions--- in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life."
The above clearly puts Pakistan into the concept of Muslim Ummah even before it came in to being. I’m sure there must be great relevant quotations of Alaama Iqbal affirming this.
A Muslim advocating for Nationalism above Islamic brotherhood is as strange as a vegetarian counting the blessings of eating meat.
[/QUOTE]
JazakAllah
Very detailed conclusive reply.
As for this rajpit fury guy. He is not a Deoband. In a earlier post
he mixed up salafi/deoband together. And they are different school
of thoughts.
I meant,..my point about pashtuns was a diversion from the topic.
The main point is, what is the alternative, should the Pakistani government agree to support the policies of another Nation..solely because it is Muslim?
I didn't support the Taliban, but I felt the level of Musharrafs support for the US is wrong. At the same time what alternative did he have? The US had by implication said if they weren't provided bases they would take them by force. While a US blockade would have triggered Pakistans economic collapse, and perhaps been used as a pretext for an Indian invasion.
In the end one can support fellow Muslim states, but it is very hard to support states led by tyrannical regimes like Saddam or the Taliban.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I meant,..my point about pashtuns was a diversion from the topic.
The main point is, what is the alternative, should the Pakistani government agree to support the policies of another Nation..solely because it is Muslim?
I didn't support the Taliban, but I felt the level of Musharrafs support for the US is wrong. At the same time what alternative did he have? The US had by implication said if they weren't provided bases they would take them by force. While a US blockade would have triggered Pakistans economic collapse, and perhaps been used as a pretext for an Indian invasion.
In the end one can support fellow Muslim states, but it is very hard to support states led by tyrannical regimes like Saddam or the Taliban.
[/QUOTE]
Very well put. As President Musharraf has always said a weak Pakistan is bad for the entire Muslim Ummah, and only a strong Pakistan can help strengthen the wider Muslim polity. We must give no excuse to any non-Muslim power (or for that matter any supposed Muslim states) to attack and weaken our nation.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
A Muslim advocating for Nationalism above Islamic brotherhood is as strange as a vegetarian counting the blessings of eating meat.
[/QUOTE]
True very true i wish muslims would realise this issue of nationalism it is a disease that needs to be dropped.
.