Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
Democracy can't come out of infancy if the politicians keep destroying it themselves.
excellent point, I am still interested in benchmarks of how long it has taken democracy to really take hold in other places,
are we going for a world record here? 60+ years of instability?
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
excellent point, I am still interested in benchmarks of how long it has taken democracy to really take hold in other places, are we going for a world record here? 60+ years of instability?
Lets calculate the years of damocracy and dictatorships.
Bhutto-5 Years (1972-77)
BB - 4 Years combined two tenures **
**NS - 4 years combined two tenures
Zardari- 2.5 Years since 2008
Total 15.5 years rest 47.5 years is of dictatorships.
(Threre might be some difference in tenures of BB and NS)
The dictators who ruined the institutions in 47.5 years can not be fixed in 15.5 years of discontinued democracies. Go firgue out real reason for the instability prevaling in the country.
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
Lets calculate the years of damocracy and dictatorships.
Bhutto-5 Years (1972-77) BB - 4 Years combined two tenures ** **NS - 4 years combined two tenures Zardari- 2.5 Years since 2008 Total 15.5 years rest 47.5 years is of dictatorships.
(Threre might be some difference in tenures of BB and NS)
The dictators who ruined the institutions in 47.5 years can not be fixed in 15.5 years of discontinued democracies. Go firgue out real reason for the instability prevaling in the country.
Think again, was it only dictators ruining the institutions?? Our politicians are much more incompetent than dictators. Dictatorship is NEVER good for any country and it's NEVER a long term solution but the problem is that our democratic leaders used those 15.5 years to destroy our country as much as they could. Today, we have politicians who openly/happily announce in front of whoe world that corruption is their RIGHT.
Dictators certainly didn't spend 47 years destroying institutions, there were some good times and bad times during ALL governments but end result is that politicians are as much responsible (if not more) than dictators.
Finally your support for a person like Zardari is nothing less than disgusting so you should be the LAST person on this forum to criticise ANYONE for currouption.
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
Lets calculate the years of damocracy and dictatorships.
Bhutto-5 Years (1972-77) BB - 4 Years combined two tenures ** **NS - 4 years combined two tenures Zardari- 2.5 Years since 2008 Total 15.5 years rest 47.5 years is of dictatorships.
(Threre might be some difference in tenures of BB and NS)
The dictators who ruined the institutions in 47.5 years can not be fixed in 15.5 years of discontinued democracies. Go firgue out real reason for the instability prevaling in the country.
so are you telling me there was no civilian leader before bhutto? or does your pakistani political history start post bhutto? :)
How can I respond to a response that
A- quotes my post but does not answer my question which was.."I am still interested in benchmarks of how long it has taken democracy to really take hold in other places"
B- is still factually incorrect, would you let me know who the following gentlemen were?
Liaquat Ali Khan
(August 14, 1947 to October 16, 1951)
Khawaja Nazimuddin
(October 17, 1951 - April 17, 1953)
Muhammad Ali Bogra
(April 17, 1953 - August 12, 1955)
Chaudhry Muhammad Ali
(August 12, 1955 - September 12, 1956)
Husain Shaheed Suhrawardy
(September 12, 1956 - October 17, 1957)
Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar
(October 17, 1957 - December 16, 1957)
Malik Feroz Khan Noon
(December 16, 1957 - October 7, 1958)
Yes your point stands that for majority of the time Pakistan has been under military dictatorships, I agree with the basic argument you have. I still want to compare it to other countries which may or may not have faced similar issues, just to see how long it has taken other countries.
Lastly, I dont think the political leaders atleast in the last few decades were effective, sincere, competent or honest either, so for the country it has been an out of the frying pan, into the fire, back into the fire pan and back into the fire scenario for a while now
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
If for a majority of time Pakistan has been under military dictatorships, a majority of blame for our failings should go to military rather than politicians.
We also need to consider post-Partition Pakistan. Pakistan Muslim League at that time was dominated by landlords, nawabs and feudal lords. Very few people from middle or lower classes were represented in the decision making ranks of PML or All India Muslim League for that matter. Indian Congress, on the other hand had a fair representation from the middle class. The earlier 'democartic' governments were composed of such people who were not in touch with ground realities and still had the 'khumaar' of their 'nawabiyat'. Bhutto was probably the first leader who could relate to the masses, although he did make a mess of it.
If politicians know they only have 2/3 years to loot and plunder as much as possible before military intervenes, they would do so. The so called 'democracies' of 90s were also disrupted by 'establishment' time and again where 'elected' governments were replaced with other 'elected' regimes.
About X2's question, I think we need a clear 20 years of democratic process for the spirit to take roots without overt or covert interruption from military.
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
so are you telling me there was no civilian leader before bhutto? or does your pakistani political history start post bhutto? :)
How can I respond to a response that
A- quotes my post but does not answer my question which was.."I am still interested in benchmarks of how long it has taken democracy to really take hold in other places"
B- is still factually incorrect, would you let me know who the following gentlemen were?
Liaquat Ali Khan (August 14, 1947 to October 16, 1951)
Khawaja Nazimuddin (October 17, 1951 - April 17, 1953)
Muhammad Ali Bogra (April 17, 1953 - August 12, 1955)
Chaudhry Muhammad Ali (August 12, 1955 - September 12, 1956)
Husain Shaheed Suhrawardy (September 12, 1956 - October 17, 1957)
Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar (October 17, 1957 - December 16, 1957)
Malik Feroz Khan Noon (December 16, 1957 - October 7, 1958)
Yes your point stands that for majority of the time Pakistan has been under military dictatorships, I agree with the basic argument you have. I still want to compare it to other countries which may or may not have faced similar issues, just to see how long it has taken other countries.
Lastly, I dont think the political leaders atleast in the last few decades were effective, sincere, competent or honest either, so for the country it has been an out of the frying pan, into the fire, back into the fire pan and back into the fire scenario for a while now
Look at their tenures, few months or a year or so. They were either killed or kicked out from their posts by dictators. That is why I don't count them as real political governments or democracies. peace my friend.
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
Musharaf's NPR should hang their gloves even before they break sweat! It will save them lots of Pain and Heartbreak. However they can serve a good anchor to any Comedy Show.
PPP should stop using 'interruptions' as an excuse for not holding Party Elections EVER! Democracy rises from within and spreads to the masses. What is their excuse and why get angry at the boomerang which keeps hitting them back ?
I feel sorry for Amin Makhtoum as he was the only beacon to carry this forward for PPP ( What a deliberate waste ) hence PPP is going down in the next elctns as BB's myth is almost over.
PML is as disintegrated a Party as a Carriage drawn by several Ponies, Jackasses, and few Monkeys. Their problem is that they are all facing the different directions and not moving at all. Perhaps waiting for Mian Ji to ride them again!
MQM is a party which is 'Qaumiet' based but most of MQM followers deny this notion. Is it good or bad I am not too sure yet it, but the 'Qaumiet' bit is darn dangerous if you ask me!
I think Army's role is to protect the State's Sovereignty and we are surrounded by Old & New Dangers. They must stick to this task and Upgrade their Capabilities to the next level regardless of the 'Leadership Flaws'
What we have left now are the Parties with religious agendas and 'Years' of experience in losing peoples mandate. Not once did I ever heard any Leaders talking about compact matters of national Interests. They have been very Sporadic in their thoughts and agendas.
Last but not the least the 'FOLLOWERS' 'JIALAYS' 'KARKUNS' are non other than the persons on your left-right-behind-front. What is their role in such scheme of things? Just an academic thought would do,,,,,,!
Re: Musharraf on NPR .. his plans to return Pakistan
Look at their tenures, few months or a year or so. They were either killed or kicked out from their posts by dictators. That is why I don't count them as real political governments or democracies. peace my friend.
understood, the first three though had tenures the same length as each of BB and NS tenures (not combined)