In the world economic forum, Musharraf meets the Israeli minister Shimon Perez.
well was there any outrage back home?? I think the majority are really tired of worrying about the '\mmah' everywhere .. it's time we looked at our own problems and let the 'Umma' solve their own. So if the Israeli minister had any messages for trade etc.. let's hear them and see how we can benefit.. afterall we take aid from the USA.. why be hypocritical and not maintain ties with Israel then?
good step by Musharaf. Next move should be to recognise Israel.
Not going to happen, thankfully. Pakistan has already indefinately postponed a UN conferencethat it was due to host, because it became clear that an Israeli minister was intending to be part of the UN delegation.
Recognition of Isreal is going to be a gradual process. Musharaf is a shrewd man, he knows that cordial relations with Isreal would be beneficial for Pakistan in the long run.
In what way?
Israel is a strategic rival to Pakistan, through its close defence relationship with India, and in turn Pakistan is a strategic rival to Israel through its important and close relationships with the most ardent anti-Israeli middle-eastern country.
There is too little to gain through recognising Israel, and in any case, even in the highly unlikely case that the government tries to recognise Israel, the MMA (for ideological grounds) and ARD (for political grounds - they'll do anything to get mileage out of opposing) will block any attempts to introduce measures to this effect.
Pakistanis can be safe in the knowledge that recognition of the Jewish entity in Palestine is not coming any time soon.
mad scientist
Why don't people like you take your blikers off and see the wider picture. Recognising Israel would benefit Pak a hell of a lot. The Arab countries are trading with Israel except Saudi, (and we will not go into the rights and wrongs of the Saudis). We should take care of our needs first. We as Muslims are too pre-occupied with what the next person believes in, who cares!, let them get on with their lives and we with ours. Our Prophet (pbuh) traded with them all the time. in the last 50 years how far has Pakistan moved , not far enough! Look at India, Korea, Malyasia etc and them look at Pakistan. Religion is a personal matter for each individual, let it not stand in the way of progress (Islam is a religion that encourages education, to strive for knowlegde, to progress oneself), we as Muslim instead of progressing are regressing.
Re: mad scientist
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Daniyal: *
We as Muslims are too pre-occupied with what the next person believes in, who cares!, let them get on with their lives and we with ours. Our Prophet (pbuh) traded with them all the time.
[/QUOTE]
Not recognising Israel isn't a matter of the belief of Israelis. As you pointed out, the Prophet (SAWS) and indeed his companions did not limit their economic and diplomatic relations to being just with Muslims. The issue is that Israel is demonstrating, through its occupation of the Muslim land of Palestine, and in particular of Al-Quds, that it is an enemy of the Muslim people.
You logic would work fine if Pakistan were a secular state, but it is not. Religion is not just a personal matter for the individual, but is is also the guiding principle for the State.
Musharraf talks to Peres
DAVOS, Jan 22: President Pervez Musharraf shook hands and conversed warmly with former Israeli prime minister Shimon Peres here on Thursday. The two met apparently by chance in public outside a VIP lounge at the annual World Economic Forum.
Pakistani officials looked on nervously as Gen Musharraf smiled, had a prolonged handshake and spoke for about two minutes with Mr Peres, who shared the Nobel Peace Prize for a 1993 Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement that has since fallen apart. “We all look to your leadership,” the veteran Israeli politician, now leader of the opposition Labour party, told the president.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Pakistani officials looked on nervously as Gen Musharraf smiled, had a prolonged handshake and spoke for about two minutes with Mr Peres,<<<
This probably sends shivers up the spine of the posters who think of Mushy as their god. What do they have to say to this?
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Not really. Spontaneous handshakes taking other countries by surprise is his style - remember the last Saarc summit, and Veggie Pie's surprise at being on the receiving end of a Musharraf handshake?
Not greeting someone, even your enemy, is simply rude. Besides - Peres is Ariel Sharon's strongest domestic opponent. I'll shake hands with anyone who wants to see Sharon go.
Don't read too much into a handshake.
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*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Don't read too much into a handshake.
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How many previous Pakistani leaders have shook hands with Israeli leaders. stats please..
Musharaf must do what he thinks is right for his country and at this time publicly embracing Israel might not be on top of that agenda. A handshake and small talk are nice gestures and such a situation should be dealt with in baby steps.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
How many previous Pakistani leaders have shook hands with Israeli leaders. stats please..
[/QUOTE]
How many previous Pakistani leaders (excepting the Quaid) have been of Musharaf's calibre? Stats please...
Re: mad scientist
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Daniyal: *
Why don't people like you take your blikers off and see the wider picture. Recognising Israel would benefit Pak a hell of a lot. The Arab countries are trading with Israel except Saudi, (and we will not go into the rights and wrongs of the Saudis). We should take care of our needs first. We as Muslims are too pre-occupied with what the next person believes in, who cares!, let them get on with their lives and we with ours. Our Prophet (pbuh) traded with them all the time. in the last 50 years how far has Pakistan moved , not far enough! Look at India, Korea, Malyasia etc and them look at Pakistan. Religion is a personal matter for each individual, let it not stand in the way of progress (Islam is a religion that encourages education, to strive for knowlegde, to progress oneself), we as Muslim instead of progressing are regressing.
[/QUOTE]
What wider picture are you talking about. Besides principles, PAkistan's stance is just! Did you ever think how many allies we have in the world? Starting relations with (the so called state of) Israel will be very disadvantageous.
We must look at the public opinion in the Muslim world, not the governemnt positions. The public opinion is very much against the Israeli actions and the existance of the illigitimate state of ISrael.
We will loose close friends like Saudi Arabia, UAE and a few others who have always supported us economically. We are here to live in the region, Israel will be a thing of past . Only time willl tell.
Just think, what will we gain by recognizing them? Nothing except humiliation in the Muslim world.
Lastly, religion is not a personal matter in Islam. You do need to understand Islam, which believes in building a society. Quran is full of verses that indicate that Islam is not a personal matter like other religions. It is a way of life.
^^ but the Qur'ans way of life doesn't prohibit you from having cordial relations with Israel..
First of all, Pakistanis love to place ourselves right opposite India whenever we are talking about our relationship with another country. The basic logic is that if someone is a friend of India, they will not be a friend of Pakistan. I think this logic has run its course and its pretty lame. Both India and Pakistan have their issues, but not the whole world revolves around the Kashmir issue. Pakistan and India will resolve that issue in its own time, but that is not an excuse to hinge all our foreign relations with other countries based on their relationship with India.
Yes, Israel has a close cooperative relationship with India, but so does 100 other countries of the world. Given an opportunity who is to say that Israel will not forge close cooperation with Pakistan too? Truth is Pakistan has not given Israel the time of day ever. And the reason for that is our love affair with Arabs and Muslims in the middle east. We have always felt that till Israel settles its disputes with its neighboring Muslim countries, we should also show a cold shoulder to Israel.
Arab countries were perhaps a big source of trade and revenue for Pakistan, so the policy against Israel made sense. Its just a question of which side of the bread is buttred. Religious differences don't mean much when it comes to national interests. Otherwise we have such close relationship with non-Ahl-e-Kitaab and communist nation of China. The rules of friendship are defined by our national interests, the reciprocity shown by the other and joint mutual benefits keeping in view the size and abilities of each other.
With changing world environement, if Israel's neighboring arab countries are showing increasing signs of giving up the fight, then on what grounds will Pakistan keep on harping an anti-Israel diatribe? We should keep our eyes open. If we decide that Arabs are giving us a better deal and our friendship with Israel will dampen our friendship with Arabs, then the present policy is just fine. If, on the other hand, we feel that Arabs are also changing direction, and it doesn't make sense to keep on fighting a battle, which was never our battle to start with, then we'll gradually change our course too.
Having said that, I don't think Pakistan should change its course on Israel, solely due to pressure from Washington. USA is the weakest link in our chain of "friends and allies" and it has proven it self completely unreliable in the past and there is enough dirt on Pakistan sitting in Washington, that it will take a very short time for the relationship to go from "closest ally" to measured strikes within Pakistan to take out our assets.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
How many previous Pakistani leaders (excepting the Quaid) have been of Musharaf's calibre? Stats please...
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chanda, first answer my question, then get ask your question. shabash
ayub maybe
zulfiqaar maybe
and it hink that is about it.
there were others like sahibzada yaqub khan, and ppl like shujjat sahab, great ppl but were not PM or Prez.
okay... you have bought enough time, now answer my question, and then we can kinda see if this handshake is just a handshake.
It’s a moral issue, would you be friend with a known oppressor? For sure only Musharaf can do this, because he thinks its ok for someone to occupy somewhere and then claim ownership of that land. He doesn’t think of this as a moral issue, let alone being a religious one. Al-Aqsa being occupied its ok for him. If there are other "Muslims" who think its ok, then what’s wrong with him? See, he wants to join the "majority".
He doesn’t agree with the concept of Ummah, so what can you do about that, teach him Quran and Sunnah, as if that will change him, or make him morally just. He stands out for principles which are just his own and that has nothing to do with the religion, where he comes from, religion is his personal matter and it has nothing to do with the state. The point is, as said by one of our Pro-Israel friends here
''Musharaf must do what he thinks is right for his country"
but the main problem is that its not just his country, and just being a dictator doesn’t give him that legitimacy……. and this is just being moral… forget about the religious issue.
so if we look at India/Kashmiris in the same way as Israel/palestinians, it would mean that arab countries should not have political or trade relations with India, import from it etc etc.
but we know that is not the case...so why is it that when it comes to israel and pakistan the rules are different than what we see for arabs and India?
someone explain this
That's what I have said earlier, if there are other morally unjust people or countries why couldn’t Pakistan be one of them?
And this issue of Arabs being this and that, the question is (being a muslim & believer in the day of judgment) would there be any excuse given to us because the arabs has done so and so?