Musharraf admits that some scientists may indeed have sold secrets (MERGED)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *

Okay so if we can disregard Iran and Libya as munafiqs as well according to your criteria, then that leaves us with what? Taleban? Quite a few of them switched sides during the recent war so we aren't really left with much are we?

And how exactly did Pakistan put Talebs necks on the line? Do we decide policy in Afghanistan? Pak was right not to make the same mistake as Mullah Umar and rely on help from the "Ummah" coz it wouldn't have arrived. Arabs can't protect their own, fat chance of them helping the Talebs.

Fraudz is right Ummah looks good on paper but there isn't any Ummah at state level so Pakistan should look out for no 1 just like the rest of the Ummah.
[/QUOTE]

First of all, I am discussing the hypocricy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, with its citizens, so don't drag other countries into the discussion, you are only trying to shift the focus elsewhere so that the original question gets sidelined.

And who are the few that switched sides in the recent war?

I've answered that question in an earlier post on this thread on how Pakistan put Taliban's neck on the line to save their own.

One of your questions was interesting, let me rephrase it for you, you'll get your answer...

How did Iran or Libya then put Pakistan's neck on the line? Do they decide policy in Pakistan?

I can't recall the Taliban relying on the "ummah" for help, they've always relied on their Creator. By the way not all arabs are Muslims.

You end up contradicting yourself like your buddy, you mention that there is no "ummah" at state level and then you mention that Pakistan should look out for no 1 just like the rest of the ummah. In your second statement you are accepting that there is an ummah and since it is only states that you are referring to as "the rest of the ummah", then you are plainly contradicting your first.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by camouflage: *

Ummah does exist, refer to my earlier post, maybe not in the form of a country but it does exist. I wonder why you are stuck with the false notion that the “ummah” consists of countries only....

Basic point for Pakistan is to stop acting as a munafiq by calling itself an Islamic Republic but acting as secular.
[/QUOTE]

We aren't talking about individuals here we are talking about the nations actions which define them as "munafiqeen". Seems to me there aren't any nations who act any different to Pakistan in putting their own interests first so why Pakistan should be the lone vanguard for Saudi version of Islam is a mystery to me - especially at it's own expense.

If Taleban is your yardstick for what a muslim country should be then I don't have a problem in Pakistan being described as a munafiq nation. You and the rest of the people of your thinking good luck to you but don't talk to me about nations. Nations aren't built on smuggling in weapons built by kaffirs technology and handing out a few leaflets.

*Alright, so you were mocking those who thought that there is an Ummah… let me ask you: *

Not mocking..proving that there is no real ummah out there

*A when has Pakistan put the “ummah” ahead of its “national interests”? *

well supposedly our stance on palestine and kashmir is due to Ummah stuff. but let me ask you., could you bring some examples of other countries who have done anything for the Ummah? none right.. so why is there an expectations for Pakistan to put this vague concept ahead of its own national interests and its own people.

*B Eliminate the word Islamic when referring to Republic of Pakistan, rest assured no one would want Pakistan to put ummah first. *

applies to everyone else also, whether it was islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or Iran etc :)

*C Every one else acts in accordance with their constitution, why not follow them then also? *

hey they may follow their constitution but that does not mean their constitution is right. take teh Saudi monarchy for example...or kuwaiti, or qatari or bahraini :) get teh drift.

**
Ummah does exist, refer to my earlier post, maybe not in the form of a country but it does exist. I wonder why you are stuck with the false notion that the “ummah” consists of countries only. **

Okay then, this loose connection of individuals.. what have they really done for others? lets forget the country concept. I dont see ppl in KSA or Bahrain supporting causes in Pakistan in droves and helping the people...nice Ummah eh?

Yeah Right, give me a break.

yep it appears you need one.

*The meaning of ummah is still not clear to you it seems. There is a contradiction in your statements:
You mention that there is no ummah, and then you also mention that no country acts in the interest of the “ummah”, you are basically accepting that there is an “ummah”, but no country is acting in the interest of the ummah. *

no contradiction.. point being that we are being asked to put the interests of other countries ahead of Pakistan's interests..

now that you have admitted earlier in your post that there is no Ummah in the form of a country. I agree.. so if Pakistan puts someone else's interests ahead, they are putting teh interest of another government, another country.. not the Ummah.

*Just for clarification purposes, the import of the culture you are referring to did not take place when Taliban were governing Afghanistan, *

Just for calirification purposes, did I say that the drugs and guns came in when taleban were in power? I really dont recall saying that.

*and btw didn’t you export the drugs all over the world? Did you think it was cool? *

Did I? or did Pakistan.. :P

sure there was drug smugglers in Pakistan. but Pakistani drug smugglers were like the 7-11 versus afghanis who were like a walmart.

Although interestingly enough the drug and gun "problem" in Pakistan occured after afghanistan collapsed and landed in teh hands of its fueding bunch of warlord idiots.

The concept of Ummah does exist, if you think that only a country can represent ummah, then its your definition of ummah that is incorrect not its concept.

so Ummah exists..however I have not seen Ummah act in the interest of its ppl in Pakistan.

and I agree, it does not exist in teh form of a country, so ppl asking pakistan to put the interestds of another country first e.g. afghanistan is not putting Ummah first, but the abuse of the word Ummah to rally some ppl behind them :)

Basic point for Pakistan is to stop acting as a munafiq by calling itself an Islamic Republic but acting as secular.

Basic point for any country is to stop considering others munafiq. I would personally have no problem whatsoever if Pakistan drops the word Islamic" and just becomes the republic of Pakistan.

But rules should be the same, I do not see other countries going out of their way, risking themselves to help pakistan. and I dont see this "Ummah" at large supporting Pakistanis.

waiting for this whole who is a munafiq discussion to be split from this thread

Pakistan’s nuclear architect the prime suspect in alleged leak

The architect of Pakistan’s nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, is the prime suspect in a probe into alleged nuclear leaks to Iran and Libya, senior government and intelligence officials told AFP.

AFP/File Photo

Evidence collected so far strongly points to Khan’s involvement in the alleged leaks in the late 1980s and early 1990s, they told AFP.

“There is sufficient evidence of linkages between a handful of individuals in Pakistan and the international black market mafia trading in nuclear technology, with Khan being a primary figure in the shadowy business,” the government official said, on condition of anonymity.

A.Q. Khan is too big to be questioned the way the others are being questioned. The domestic fallout of his questioning might prove unmanageable for the government,"


[QUOTE]
...A.Q. Khan is too big to be questioned the way the others are being questioned. The domestic fallout of his questioning might prove unmanageable for the government"...
[/QUOTE]


I can understand the dilema Pakistani government is in. We had the same issue with Modi in India. I somehow doubt Mr. Khan will escape like Modi.

Nuclear proliferation is plain wrong. Firstly, as a responsible nuclear power it should be our duty to keep our strategic assets in control. Secondly, we hardly ourselves were able to get nuclear technology with all the sanctions and god knows what, now with this added stigma of proliferation it is only going to open a can of worms for us. What were these meatheads thinking? You're supplying nuclear know-how to states like Iran & Libya, which are under a constant eye of US. It could not have hidden for long.

If it is true, that our scientists handed out our secrets out of sheer avarice, it will not surprise me. I mean comon a few years back we were the second most corrupt country in the world. But I hope American pressurizes us enough to put these scientists behind bars, as they fully deserve it. Also, it will serve as a lesson to any other traitor scientist not to go around and impart nuclear knowledge.

Re: Musharraf admits that some scientists may indeed have sold secrets (MERGED)

TIME Magazine has a special on this Merchant of Menace… Dr. Khan..

The Man Who Sold the Bomb

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050214/story.html

The Merchant of Menace
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050214/

Khan’s dangerous game
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050214/map/