Re: MQM in encouraging position in Punjab: Altaf
I dont argee with Mr Shahid Kardar ..... IMHO ..... the difference is too much
On the same page 13 I think you missed THIS bit..
**
The majority of those who had migrated to West Punjab (Pakistan) had moved from East Punjab (India). As such there was no problem at the level of culture or language and hence, integration.**
The point is both you and Aliyish are right, Aliyish is refering to URDU SPEAKING immigrants from UP, CP and other areas of India (Generally THEY are refered as MUHAJIRS), and MAJORITY of them migrated to Sindh. If we include Punjabi Speaking migrants, then total of course comes around 70% of mass migration.
not really, if we exclude IMMIGRANTS from EAST Punjab. 
On the same page 13 I think you missed THIS bit..
** *The majority of those who had migrated to West Punjab (Pakistan) had
moved from East Punjab (India). As such there was no problem at the level
of culture or language and hence, integration.***
The point is both you and Aliyish are right, Aliyish is refering to URDU SPEAKING immigrants from UP, CP and other areas of India (Generally THEY are refered as MUHAJIRS), and MAJORITY of them migrated to Sindh. If we include Punjabi Speaking migrants, then total of course comes around 70% of mass migration.
Can't get much simpler then this. However, its obviously a known fact, but people are acting naive and playing petty arguments around it.
On the same page 13 I think you missed THIS bit..
The majority of those who had migrated to West Punjab (Pakistan) had moved from East Punjab (India). As such there was no problem at the level of culture or language and hence, integration.
The point is both you and Aliyish are right, Aliyish is refering to URDU SPEAKING immigrants from UP, CP and other areas of India (Generally THEY are refered as MUHAJIRS), and MAJORITY of them migrated to Sindh. If we include Punjabi Speaking migrants, then total of course comes around 70% of mass migration.
Yep i do hear this argument all the time. But the question is why the integration did not happen? Was it because the Sindhis were too proud or racist and did not accept migrants into their society or was it because migrants considered themselves more educated and better than locals and did ntio want to get mixed with locals.
By the way, there were still lot of differences among culture of east and west punjab. My maternal family migrated from east Punjab. For a long time the migrants from east Punjab were called "mahjar" in west Punjab.
Yep i do hear this argument all the time. But the question is why the integration did not happen? Was it because the Sindhis were too proud or racist and did not accept migrants into their society or was it because migrants considered themselves more educated and better than locals and did ntio want to get mixed with locals.
** By the way, there were still lot of differences among culture of east and west punjab.** My maternal family migrated from east Punjab. For a long time the migrants from east Punjab were called "mahjar" in west Punjab.
"muhajirs" that went to sindh weren't a homogenous group. That is the fundemental thing that seems to be missing from our chat here. The only thing that they shared in common was their faith in islam and pakistan and maybe urdu. They were from many different ethnic states of the subcontinent, and each state had its own cultural baggage.
I can't believe i am mentioning this. This logic should be common sense!
Re: MQM in encouraging position in Punjab: Altaf
^I know that and that makes me wonder why they didn't get integrated into locals.
Although, i feel there wasn't much of discord till the ethnofascist Altaf Hussain started spreadin his hatred.
People living together for centuries can get caught up in ethnic hatred once we have people like Altaf, Yugoslavia is one example.
^ Actually according to credible sources, 70% of the refugees from India actually settlled in Punjab, and only 20% in Sindh. Still, the MQM presence in Punjab is next to 0, and will always remain that way.
Spock bhaijan why do you live so far off from ground reality...Altaf will beat any fair poll held in Punjab with a very big margin....I think nobody will come even close to him...I have no doubt that his closest rival will not be able to bag even 10% votes compared to him if a free poll is carried out in Punjab....
Provided this poll has to for the most hated person in Punjab...
Yep i do hear this argument all the time. But the question is why the integration did not happen?
Integration did take place in the smaller cities of Sindh where the ratio of immigrants was lower than the local population. Most of those people learned sindhi then. But after 1972 ethinic violence, migrants were forced to leave the districts of Jacobabad, Shikarpur, Larkana and Dadu and from other parts of Sindh.
In Karachi and Hyderabad, there were hardly any Sindhi people and migrants came in their hundreds of thousands.
Re: MQM in encouraging position in Punjab: Altaf
Mostar, there are lot of Punjabis in interiro Sindh, why do they seem to get along better with Sindhis?
Re: MQM in encouraging position in Punjab: Altaf
There are hardly any punjabies in the area, I have mentioned.
Re: MQM in encouraging position in Punjab: Altaf
I know many Punjabis from dadu. One of them was my class fellow, they even have whole villages of Punjabis. Though they generally follow the Sindhi style of living and clothes.
Yep i do hear this argument all the time. But the question is why the integration did not happen?
what are the factors which make sure that integration takes place? A minority living in an area is more likely to integrate with the majority, that is a universal truth. In Sindh, the urdu speaking were living mainly in URBAN cities and they were in HUGE MAJORITY, Karachi and Hyderabad are the examples. In interior Sindh there were very few MUHAJIRS, and they DID integrate with the Sindhi culture. But the lines were drawn NOT in INTERIOR SINDH, it was URBAN SINDH.
In Punjab we didn't have this problem, the population distribution was in right proportion in Punjab. Sindhis maily rellied upon irrigation so they didn't move to cities, where as Muhajirs replaced Hindu middle class in main cities. With the time when Sindhis started moving toward cities they realised that they are like strangers in their own SINDHI CITIES, you can't blame them for this, nor the blame can be put on MUHAJIRS since the future prospects for them were in cities, not in small villages.
example from recent history, there are about 3 million POLISH nationals migrated to UK in recent years, and they are blended well with the British society even though they have different culture and language. The key is that they are not limited or headed to only ONE AREA, they are all over UK.
I know many Punjabis from dadu. One of them was my class fellow, they even have whole villages of Punjabis. Though they generally follow the Sindhi style of living and clothes.
what about Punjabis in Karachi? do they speak URDU? do they follow the URBAN culture or they stick to the Punjabi culture when it comes to social interaction?
The point is that in a group of 100 people it is more likely that 20 People who speak a different language will follow the language other 80 speak, even if total number of THEIR language speaking people is 1000 times than those 80 present in THAT group.
same goes with Karachi and Hyderabad. Even Punjabis and Sindhis are in majority* in PAKISTAN*, but in these two cities they are relatively small minority.
what about Punjabis in Karachi? do they speak URDU? do they follow the URBAN culture or they stick to the Punjabi culture when it comes to social interaction?
The point is that in a group of 100 people it is more likely that 20 People who speak a different language will follow the language other 80 speak, even if total number of THEIR language speaking people is 1000 times than those 80 present in THAT group.
same goes with Karachi and Hyderabad. Even Punjabis and Sindhis are in majority* in PAKISTAN*, but in these two cities they are relatively small minority.
I agree with this post, the minority integrates with majority fast and that should be case.
Also he is right where immigrants get settled in numbers in urban areas of Karachi/Hyderabad and became the majority and replaced the pre-partition middle class hinuds.
what about Punjabis in Karachi? do they speak URDU? do they follow the URBAN culture or they stick to the Punjabi culture when it comes to social interaction?
I agree with your previous post, but to answer your question, the Punjabiz in Karachi have pretty much adopted the 'Urdu' culture, when it comes to business, social interaction etc. Almost all the second generation kids speak Urdu, rather than Punjabi (which is how it is in punjab for the middle class). However, they had an advantage, the transition from speaking Punjabi to Urdu isnt that hard.
I know many Punjabis from dadu. One of them was my class fellow, they even have whole villages of Punjabis. Though they generally follow the Sindhi style of living and clothes.
I think many arians are living in Sindh before partition. We have famous a famous place in Karachi's Lalokhet Area - called Tin Hatti. Its a name from pre partition era - Hatti is for shops and tin for three.
I think many arians are living in Sindh before partition. We have famous a famous place in Karachi's Lalokhet Area - called Tin Hatti. Its a name from pre partition era - Hatti is for shops and tin for three.
Mostar
As an aside, there are and always have been a very significant population of urdu speaking muhajirs who settled in Lahore, Multan and Rawalpindi especially. I dont think there have ever been any significant issues with their integration and all these years later most such families you meet are quite literally no different than the local people, they speak both urdu and punjabi and the transition has been quite clean.