this is exactly what I'm talking about.. MMA is not a foreign force. it represents the thoughts, beliefs and ideas of a wide majority of the people of Pakistan.. let's face it.. we have a semi-Talibinised nation which will not flinch at imposing further draconion laws aimed at the eventual suppression of females and free thought.
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*Originally posted by outlaw: *
ANP and its followers are a bunch of rejected low lives. Likes of Baacha khan, who opposed the creation of Pakistan and it's good that he was not given an inch of Pakistani land to be burried.
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Will you feel the same way about the Jamaatis who form the major part of MMA? Rememebr Jamaatis were opposed to creation of Pakistan?
MMA was elected because our great PM refused to let mainstream people run in elections for flimsy reasons.
Some realy nice people were prevented from running for not having proof of degree (Imran Khan) but Jamaati criminals were allowed to run.
At this rate MMA will take half of pakistan to 11th century.
Outlaw, someone had posted yesterday that MMA was demanding no-schooling for girls in swat. (Look at Bilal's post above). I hope MMA does well in the two provinces that it has come to power. I hope it rules wisely. A lot depends on how they perform and their conduct will affect the future of Pakistan.
However, it would be intellectually dishonest of me if I do not add that personally I do not hold much hope for that. I feel that MMA are the inheritors of the strand within the Muslim community that opposed Sir Syed Ahmed and declared him a Kafir. I hope I am wrong. I honestly beleive that they will drag Pakistan into a fight with the modern world and cause immense harm. I hope pakistanis are able to stem the tide and contain the rush to the 9th century.
My point was not about the ANP's leaderships merits and demerits. My point was you criticised them as anti Pakistani, yet reserve your comments about the MMA's leaderships past?
I have no quarrel with the MMA, in fact although surprised like almost everybody by the scale of their win, I think they may do some good (if not they'll just get booted out come the next election).
However more recently, during the Afghanistan bombing many MMA leaders were arrested on charges equal to treason. I assume outlaw, they are as such anti Pakistani?
Ah, the usual euphoria coming from those who have probaly never even stepped on NWFP's soil, and trumpeting the same old tune, that MMA will take Pakistan back centuries. Did the Kyhber medical college or Peshawar university, close their gates for women students. Apparently not so!
Old Lahori: if you have ever been to swat, then you would know that the girls' educational institutions have been there for many decades. And, swat happens to be part of NWFP. How is it possible to implement such a rule "exclusively" on the region of Swat? Please explain.
Zakk: the charges were laid by the leader of ANP- the party of rejected politicians, involved massively in drug trafficking. ANP, in the past, or present has never done anything constructive for Pakistan, since its ideologies revolve around thriving on regional differences, and creating animosity against other provinces. And, it's actually the height of hypocrisy for a leader of such a party to call elected representatives, and members of MMA, facists and terrorists.
MMA leaders were held for treason, since they are opposed to the stationing of the US forces in Pakistan, and so are millions of other Pakistani.
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Originally posted by OldLahori:
*However, it would be intellectually dishonest of me if I do not add that personally I do not hold much hope for that. I feel that MMA are the inheritors of the strand within the Muslim community that opposed Sir Syed Ahmed and declared him a Kafir. I hope I am wrong. *
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It is intellectually dishonest of you, and frankly a bit rich coming from a person who has on more than one occasion said that he is not Pakistani, but American.
Also, if you have ever visited Pakistan to trace your "heritage" have you ever been to the NWFP and Balochistan? I have on many occasions, and I tell you the MMA represents the actual will and sentiments of the people there. What policies they implement will be broadly accepted by the broad section of people there, as they are policies that emanate from the cultural and religious of the people there.
Outlaw, Since Bilal did not cite any sources of where he picked up the news of no schooling for girls, I cannot add much to that. Normally it would not make much sense that different policies are being implemented in different parts of the same state. However, that is one thing that is starting to characterise the new polity of Pakistan, as General Musharaff himself said that the writ of the Government does not travel very far. So it is possible that the local leaders somewhere might issue a rule that is contrary to laws elsewhere in the country. For example, as far as I can understand some of the rules that MMA is trying to implement right now are contrary to the central govt. rules. Nevertheless, I am glad that education for girls will not be threatened. That is good news.
Malik ji, I miss your point. Why is it dishonest coming from an american? Can I not express my wishes, hopes, and sentiments on this forum? I view myself as a well-wisher of Pakistan. I agree with many posters and I disagree with many others. As you have noted, I have never tried to cover that I was born in America. I am an american, and I freely and willingly give my first loyalty to my country, USA. I have been to Pakistan only twice and that for a brief visit. I did go to Peshawar on one of those visits. I did not go to Balochistan, but did talk to some people who had fought the Pakistani Army back in Bhutto's days when the Balochis were being considered less than loyal. My knowledge of Pakistan is largely from books, articles off the net, stories from my elders, etc. I am sure that you are absolutely correct that most people support the MMA in Peshawar and Balochistan. I have never disputed that. That is the reason why I say that it is extremely important that MMA succeeds in governing the two Provinces. Because it is supported by the people, any undue interference by the center will only breed resentment and cannot be good for Pakistan. I just hope that the rule implemented by MMA will lead Pakistan forward and not backward.
Old Lahori: what really troublesome out of all this discussion is that individuals like yourself, who are trying to create an environment of confusion and promote a sentiment of detestation, without putting forward a proof. Now, no one is really bothered with your own personal beliefs, and everyone has the right to practice whatever they please. But, it does become an issue, when fallacious accusations are made without any merit or solid evidence.
Outlaw, I really don’t understand. I answered everything you wanted to know to the best of my abilities. Again read Bilal’s post in this thread above. He mentioned no schooling for girls and I accepted his word. How am I trying to create confusion and “detestation”? I accept that you do not like to hear what I say. Yes you and I have very different views, but I have tried to expresse my views in a direct and forthright manner. Anyway here is from today’s dailynews.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-12-2002_pg3_6
According to “Khabrain” (December 18, 2002), the NWFP government gave orders to pull down all posters advertising films at Peshawar cinemas. Only names of actors would henceforth be written but without pictures. Painters of cinema posters were rendered unemployed. In Balochistan, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) also called for a similar Islamisation of public life. According to daily “Din” (December 23, 2002), cinemas in Mardan had been ordered to remove posters from outside the halls and “photo sets” from inside the buildings. The cinemas had complied with the NWFP government orders but the cinema owners complained that this removal of publicity would affect their business. They said ban on obscene pictures was justified but a ban on all posters and photo sets was not justified because cinema-goers usually decided to see the film after looking at them.
…
According to “Nawa-e-Waqt” (December 23, 2002), a musical show arranged by Pakistan Medical Association in Gujranwala’s Jinnah Hall was disrupted by a group of men led by MMA elected politicians who said the show could not go on because it was “fahashi” (obscenity) and “uriyani” (nudity). According to details, singer Naseebo Lal and some film and stage performers were invited to the show. MNA Qazi Hamidullah along with another MPA walked into the hall shouting that the show could not be allowed when Dr Ahmed Javed Khawaja was in custody of the FBI. The performers took to their heels on seeing the clergy, after which the people too ran away.
…
One proof of the failure of this theory is the growing public dissatisfaction with the army whose primary task it is to provide security. The truth of the matter is that Pakistan’s security is today threatened from within and not from without. And the threat is from poverty. Our foreign policy must reflect this new situation. That would be good governance. The truth of the matter is that we have a different view of “good governance” and it has nothing to do with the national economy or the removal of poverty of the masses.** Our good governance is of the spirit. We assume that once purification of the spirit is achieved everything else would be automatically governed well. ***
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Originally posted by OldLahori:
I view myself as a well-wisher of Pakistan. I agree with many posters and I disagree with many others. As you have noted, I have never tried to cover that I was born in America. I am an american, and I freely and willingly give my first loyalty to my country, USA.
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You are someone who is not just an "American", but someone who is ashamed of his Pakistani heritage, and who spends his entire time on this board posting entirely negative things about Pakistan and Muslims. I still remember how you rather pathetically took an article about shipping in Pakistan by Cowasajee to do down "mullahs" when Cowasajee did not even mention that at all. You even go looking for negative things in articles about Pakistan/Muslims, even when they are not there. Hence outlaw is spot on when he says you post any old rubbish without proof.
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*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
I have never tried to cover that I was born in America. I am an american, and I freely and willingly give my first loyalty to my country, USA. I have been to Pakistan only twice and that for a brief visit. I did go to Peshawar on one of those visits. I did not go to Balochistan, but did talk to some people who had fought the Pakistani Army back in Bhutto's days when the Balochis were being considered less than loyal. My knowledge of Pakistan is largely from books, articles off the net, stories from my elders, etc. I am sure that you are absolutely correct that most people support the MMA in Peshawar and Balochistan. I have never disputed that. That is the reason why I say that it is extremely important that MMA succeeds in governing the two Provinces. Because it is supported by the people, any undue interference by the center will only breed resentment and cannot be good for Pakistan. I just hope that the rule implemented by MMA will lead Pakistan forward and not backward.
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Oldlahori, you are entitled to you own opinions and beliefs regarding Pakistan politcs. But reading books, and surfing the net while sitting in yoour comfortable living room doesnt gvie one authority over these issues. And please, read other news sources as well besides Dawn and Daily Times. Most of your threads, post and links have been from these two places and and 99% of the time they say negative things about Pakistan or Mullahs or Military or Economy et al. Im not sure what you are trying to prove or highlight? Maybe you are frustrated. As outlaw correctly pointed out, your words promote a sentiment of detestation.
AS you have said yourself, your loyalty lies with Amreeka, why are you so worried about how the people of Pakistan decide who they want as their leaders. Please, sometimes also highlight some positive points about Pakistan and its people and leaders. And do visit there often, you are not cursed if your were born there. Be proud.
5Abi what other sources do you recommend that I read? I have gone to the news section of Yahoo to see how many papers are available on the net. I try to read as many of them as I can.
I really do not understand why you guys would think that I am somehow ashamed of my heritage. Malik has mentioned that before. I wonder what blind spot prevents me from seeing that, for I do not feel that I have any inferiority complex. I attribut it to what your world view must be and what you expect a Pakistani-American to behave. I wish I could understand that for it would provide an additional insight into Pakistan.
I found out for example that there is a difference between Pakistanis born in UK or other european cities where racism is far more prevalent than in America. It took me a long time to comprehend that. I guess it must be an American habit that we like to see things where they are not working so they can be improved and fixed. As the saying goes don't fix what ain't broke. I am starting to become dimly aware that you guys interpret that as negative criticism. Perhaps the difference is that the system usually works here and hence what doesn't work is infrequent, while in Pakistan the system usually doesn't work, and hence what works is infrequent and people point that out to each other. For example, no one says that the subway car was on time, but the comments fly when the darn thing is late. I will try to be sensitive to that. But if you guys think that I am out of place here, then I will stop posting. Anyway, some of my friends in the physical world think that I waste too much time at this site as it is. But I will take your advice and make a point to post items that I think are good news for and in Pakistan.
Mine destroys four video shops in northwestern Pakistan
By RIAZ KHAN
The Associated Press
12/28/02 5:53 PM
PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) – Suspected Islamic militants detonated an anti-tank mine in northwestern Pakistan, destroying four video shops and raising fears that radicals are using violence to impose a harsh brand of Islam, a human rights official said Saturday.
There were no injuries in Friday’s blast in the village of Inayat in northwestern Bajour region, about 20 miles from the Afghan border, police said. No one immediately claimed responsibility, but police suspect Islamic radicals.
“We are very concerned by the attack on the video shops,” said Afrasyab Khattak, chairman of Pakistan’s independent Human Rights Commission. “I think such acts are part of efforts to conservatize (sic) our society and put curbs on basic rights of the people through illegal and unconstitutional manners.”
Khattak said extremists have been allowed to employ intimidation and coercive tactics in an attempt to impose strict Islamic laws favored by Afghanistan’s deposed Taliban, including banning television and videocassettes. He added that the religious right has made radical elements feel they can act with impunity.
The blast occurred in Pakistan’s North West Frontier Province, where a hardline Islamic coalition swept to power in October’s elections. The coalition of six religious parties has not banned movies, but has made it hard for theater operators.
In Peshawar, the provincial capital, 61 people were arrested last week in police raids on movie houses showing videos deemed obscene, in some cases for no other reason than men and women appearing together on the screen.
The provincial government also outlawed music on buses and promised greater segregation of men and women.
Afghan and western intelligence sources have reported that training camps for Islamic militants are operating in the Bajour region where the attacks occurred.
The nephew of the Taliban’s No. 3 man, Maulvi Abdul Kabir, said suicide bombers are being trained in the area by al-Qaida fighters from Middle Eastern countries. Radical Pakistani groups outlawed by the government also have supporters in the Bajour region.
The coalition of radical religious parties won the October elections on a strong anti-American platform, and have promised to stop joint raids by Pakistan military and U.S. Special Forces in the tribal regions bordering Afghanistan, where fugitive Taliban and al-Qaida members are believed to be hiding.
At election rallies organized by the religious coalition, posters of Osama bin Laden were waved openly and praise was showered on Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, who also is hunted by U.S.-led coalition forces in Afghanistan.
Source: NJ.com