Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Now tell me who took pledge in advance before his death to appoint his heir a ruler of Muslim Ummah? The Prophet? Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Usman or Hazrat Ali (RA)?

What was need for this advance pledge? If Yazid was that able for Khilafat why not Muwaviya (RA) just nominated his name and appointed shoora to select him?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Well, Abu Bakr ra nominated Umar ra as his heir before his death (in his life).

Muawiyah ra was aware of the fitnah of Saba'ites. The Saba'ites were responsible for the worst civil war in Islam since the martyrdom of Uthman ra. Muawiyah ra knew that the the family of Ali ra had been hijacked by the Saba'ites. Saba'ites were only using Ali ra and his family. Not just that but they had killed them as well. The killer of Ali ra was a Khariji (ex-shia). Killer of Hasan ra, according to shias was his wife (a shia?). And killers of Husain ra were also shias. (Kufans, Obedullah ibn Ziyad, Shimr etc).

Muawiyah ra was one of the best statesmen of his time, a great commander and khalifah / ruler. He didn't want to take a chance by leaving the Islamic empire without a khalifah.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

I also would like to know how many people were killed under Ali ra and how many were killed under Yazid, if that's the criteria to judge the legitimacy of a khalifah.

It's really unfortunate that Husain ra was martyred, but he was martyred because of his own mistake. He shouldn't have trusted the Kufans / Saba'ites in the first place. Saba'ites had already betrayed his father and elder brother.

And let's say that Husain ra became successful in getting the pledge of allegiance from Kufans etc, then what would happen next? Another civil war between the armies of Yazid and Husain? How many more people would be killed, ever thought of that?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Islam teaches justice; there are no special laws for the family of the Prophet of Islam, s.a.w. Prophet Muhammad s.a.w said, if his own daughter Fatimah was involved in a crime like theft, he would amputate her hands too.

And by the way there were other grandsons of the Prophet s.a.w too. Chidren of Zaynab bint Muhammad, ra for example. Did they also long for khilafah?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Hazrat abu Bakr's selecting Umar (RA) did not introduce monarchy in Islam. Umar (RA) was the person for whom Prophet had said ' If there could be a prophet after me, it would be Umar'. Umar (RA) period witnessed victories of Palestine and Makran. What does period of Yazid gave to Muslims? Karbala and Hirra? Was that the statesmanship of Muwawiya (RA) that resulted slaughter of family of Prophet? He himself might be a best statesman of his era, but appointing Yazid as Khalifa of Muslim Umma was based on his personal likings that proved fatal to Muslims not only in the form of events like Karbala and Hirra, but also a permanent divide in Muslim Ummah.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Bring the details of those grandchildren of the Prophet and we will see how long they lived?

BTW Its a wrong perception that children of Ali and Fatima (RA) longed for Caliphate... Didn't Hazrat Hassan surrendered rule to Muwaviya (RA) just to save Ummah from a fitna? How the same family raised against the Yazeed (If we assume that he was the best person of his time)? Don't we know how troops of Yazeed followed those who didn't agree for his pledge?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Imam Hussain Razi Allah Anho didn't carry out the journey to get khilafat. There was a wrong tradition being set where a faasiq person like Yazeed tried to become khalifa and Imam Hussain Razi Allah Anho's step was against the nomination of a bad person as khalifa. It has been agreed among entire Muslim Ummah (which doesn't include Kharjees) that Imam Hussain is on Haq and Yazeed on Batil. Its only in recent history where some so called scholars of Islam try to defend Yazeed laeen, and Sonador! My humble advice to you is that please be careful while writing something on Imam Hussain Razi Allah Anho as he is the one for whom our beloved Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wa aalihi wasallam said that Hasan and Hussain are the kings of youth of Jannat and they are also included in Ahl-e-Bait for whom Allah has revealed Ayat-e-Tatheer (33:33) in Holy Quran.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

I dont think Hazrat Ali (RA) longed for caliphate. I personally believe that the family of the Prophet :saw2: had a much bigger mission. If they had got stuck in worldly desires who’d have spread the religion in the whole world? Hazrat Ali was baab ilm, and thats what his family did, spread the message… I dont condone the actions of Yazid, but his torture prompted them to migrate and hence spread Islam where ever they went.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

1400 years down the track, we cannot now establish who was right or wrong especially during the war of Hazrat Ali RA and Hazrat Ayesha RA. neither would this question be asked after our deaths. I'd prefer to be cautious in trying to play sides in these matters, leave this for Allah to decide.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Correct!

The tradition of monarchy in the Islamic khilafah was started by Ali ra, who transferred his power to Hasan ra. But Hasan ra was wiser than his father, that's why Rasoolullah s.a.w called Hasan 'Saiyid' in a hadith of Bukhari. Because Hasan ra didn't go for confrontation and fight among Muslims. He sacrificed his claim of khilafah, gave his pledge to Muawiyah ra.

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Umar (RA) was the person for whom Prophet had said ' If there could be a prophet after me, it would be Umar'. Umar (RA) period witnessed victories of Palestine and Makran. What does period of Yazid gave to Muslims?
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There's no comparison of Yazid to Umar ra. But you should give credit to Yazid, he didn't let people kill each other the way they did under 5 years of Ali ra. Had Yazid not suppressed the rebellion of the people of Madinah (Hirra), there would have been more chaos and civil war. It's possible Yazid kept worldly desires and benefits in view, or maybe he just wanted to avoid the fitnah of civil war.

Now use the same logic for Ali ra. How much Jihad did he do in his 5 years? How many Byztantine states came under Islam? Let's not talk about the killings of 150,000 Muslims under Ali ra (He was the aggressor in all wars by the way).

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Was that the statesmanship of Muwawiya (RA) that resulted slaughter of family of Prophet? He himself might be a best statesman of his era, but appointing Yazid as Khalifa of Muslim Umma was based on his personal likings that proved fatal to Muslims not only in the form of events like Karbala and Hirra, but also a permanent divide in Muslim Ummah.
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Well, the lives of Muslims and the unity of Islamic empire is more important than grandson of the Prophet s.a.w. There's no special place of the grandson of the Prophet s.a.w in Islam. Husain ra is not a messenger of Allah or khalifah of Muslims. He could be wrong too. And he was definitely wrong as he rebelled against the Khalifah Yazid. According to many hadiths of Bukhari a person who rebels against the khalifah is to be condemned.

Blood of Husain ra is not holier and not more precious than that of 150,000 Muslims who were killed in the civil war under Ali ra. Some people say Yazid didn't want to kill Husain ra. But let's say he did want to kill Husain ra then perhaps he wanted to avoid any civil war that would be started by Husain ra. It's also possible that Yazid wanted blood of Husain ra for worldly gains and not religious reasons. Whatever the fact is, Allah knows the truth, but one thing is established that the action of Husain ra by going against Yazid was totally wrong. There's no space for such things in Islam. We don't rebel against our khulafa. Greater companions like Abdullah ibn Umar ra gave their pledge to Yazid. Husain ra was not holier than those Sahabah.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Ali ra did long for khilafah, there are hadiths in Bukhari that suggest that.

Hasan ra was wiser and feared Allah more than Ali ra in my opinion. Because he didn't do any bloodshed of Muslims the way Ali ra did.

And by the way Hasan ra received tributes (money) from Muawiya ra for not fighting him, Husain ra also received a sum of money.

If someone is from the family of Prophet s.a.w it doesn't mean they are angels.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Can you quote those ahadith? Who would you side with in the battle of Jamal? On the one side is one of Ummahatul momineen and on the other side the cousin of the prophet :saw2: and his son in law? Who will you side with in the event of Karbala, Yazid or Hazrat Imam Hussain RA?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Please be careful in your words, Allah has mentioned family of Prophet (Ahl-e-Bait) in the Holy Quran. Aal-e-Rasool have an exalted status than rest of the Ummah. Why we say Durood not only to Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wa aalihi wasallam but also to Aal-e-Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wa aalihi wasallam in our daily prayers ?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

I shall quote them later in sha Allah.

And I would be on the safe side along with the majority of the sahaba, the likes of Abdullah ibn Umar ra.

And I would neither join Husain ra nor Yazid.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Sure...your posts are clear enough...

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

In the verse 33:33, the mothers of believers have been mentioned. Saba'ites have fabricated hadiths of kisa to include Ahl-al-Bayt of Ali ra to the Ahl-al-Bayt of Muhammad s.a.w.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

Because Yazid was not a sahabi, and he was not perfect.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

What about the policies of Uthma (RA) for keeping Muawiya governor of Syria for a long time that gave him chance to use his power? Didn't Muawiya (RA) fought against Ali? Can we only make responsible Ali (RA) for what happened to Jamal and Siffeen.

What would you say about the difference between lifestyle of first four caliphs and Muawiya and his successor Yazeed?

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

In the Quran, the address is towards Azwaaj-e-Mutaharraat. In the Hadees its mentioned that the Holy Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wa aalihi wasallam took Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima, Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Hussain Razi Allah Anhuma in his chaadar and prayed to Allah that include them in my Ahl-e-Bait. Thus both Azwaaj-e-Mutahharrat and the 4 noble personalities are all part of Ahl-e-Bait. This is from Sahee Hadees and nothing to do with Sabai'tes.

Re: Messengers of Allah versus So Called Imams

I have heard about some hadith about Karbala, is it sahih hadith?