Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

What exactly does that mean? Can religion influence in any way shape or form the business of the government? If not, then it's extreme. If yes, then there can be no true separation.

Perhaps a balance?

Consider a setup where religious minorities are 'equal'....but they'd have to agree to the supremacy of Islamic laws. This is in every way parallel to how religious people are incorporated into a secular setup. Would this be fair? Remember, in a modern context, you don't have to believe in the source or rational behind a set of laws to be subject to them.

Why is it not fair to demand that people with a secular outlook keep their secularism to themselves, and in the public sphere abide by an Islamic social and political norms?

Anyway, the point is...we really need to be clear and to the point as to what it means to seperate the two...otherwise it's just a slogan.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

:wsalam:

Perhaps the substitutions need a context around them otherwise they would be misleading (the ones I have not mentioned means I agree with your substitution):

PEACE - Peace is a relative term. I think it would help to clarify the subjects of peace here.

HUMANITY/CIVILIZATION - This one I find a bit confusing what you mean.

OUTSIDE THE ISLAMIC STATE - This imperative depends on how strong the Islamic state is to consider matters that happen beyond our borders otherwise it would be imperialistic meddling in the internal affairs of another state.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Problem is that meddlesome muslims don't know when to stop. I am SORRY, but if you go by the Quran, you will find only a small amount of offenses with perscribed punishments. Yet, the same idiots in NWFP who want their "shariah" imposed on everyone - have you SEEN what that shariah says???

It says you can't leave your house if you are female. Is this Islamic?

It says a woman can't work. Is this Islamic?

It says you can't shave beards and puts a restriction on barber shops. Is this Islamic?

It says you can't run a CD shop. Is this Islamic?

It says that if you don't convince your hsuband to grow a beard, your marriage is annulled. Is this Islamic?

It says if you are a little girl, you can't go to school. Is this Islamic?

What Islam do you guys want in your government? Because this is not just what the militant Taliban are trying to shove down everyone's throats. This is what the MMA has been after as well , and some of this stuff (ex. CD shops, music, women's participation in soceity), they've successfully accomplished!!!

And furthermore, may I remind you, that I'm not asking if these things are Islamic or not in themselves. I am asking whether the state has any right to enforce these things on muslims, when its clear that muslims worldwide are not 100% in agreement over the status of music and women in Islam.

And is it not funny to you that these same Shariat mongers are the ones who go after music and women when it comes to law reforms, but do not give a rats behind about more important things like sanitation and health, and economic opportunity, and education, and religious moderation, and control over violence?????

Its these same people who want religion and law to go together that are making up things like "Hey, those polio vaccines from WHO are nothing more than population-control drugs, and they'll make you impotent". They don't give a F about peoples' health. Oh let some kids develop polio, who cares, as long as those women keep pumping out babies so that when they turn 15, we can send them off to Afghanistan and Iraq and saccrifice their lives for the mistake the muslims in THOSE countries made when it came to assisting Americans in coming into their own countries!!!

Why should my countrymen pay for the mistakes that Shiites made in Iraq, by allowing in Americans so that they could get more representation in their government? Too bad, if you want to mess up your own country, mess it up, by why pester my population to pay for that with their blood??? We Pakistanis are total suckers, because we buy into their bullcrap and we go fight their sorry wars. Alhamdullillah and Subhannallah - that's all you need to say to a Pakistani and you've got their life in their hands and you can throw it any way you want.

THIS is what these guys have done. They've manipulated Islam and you want MORE of this nonsense?

No, I don't think so. If Islam's clergy were more responsible people, if our Imams were better people, if we were better muslims and more educated and empowered about our faith, we could battle this. But we are too vulnerable to manipulation and FOR THAT REASON, Islam should not be tied in with the law - at least not now, and not in Pakistan. When we get our act together, maybe. But until people equate Islamic law with PCG having to do pardah and not being able to work in Karachi, then HELL NO. I do not think Islamic law should be part of Islam, because guess what? THAT'S NOT ISLAMIC LAW!

And please do not let me MISLEAD you. Whereever I have typed in CAPS, I am definitely shouting.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Arrhay bhai, is Pakistan filled with kaafirs that you need to be telling me this? Its a country filled with Muslims. You want to converse and invite, fine. Who the hell are you trying to convert?

Furthermore, I hope you do realize that there are many productive and good Islamic organizations working in Pakistan and guess WHAT? Last time I checked, you can't go to prison in Pakistan for being a muslim!

Its a muslim country. Get a reality check. The Shariah that I am staunchly opposed to has nothing to do with Islam.

Pakistani laws are , for the most part, fairly Islamic in nature.

I have repeatedly asked this from people like yourself who call for Shariat law, and NOT SUPRISINGLY, I get no response.

And yet I ask again. List SPECIFICALLY what Pakistani laws are UNISLAMIC to you. Then we can talk. Those laws can always be ammended if you choose to go about it in a peaceful way.

Taking up arms, stomping into a village, and telling everyone "We are now your government and what we say is Shariat. You obey or die" is NOT an Islamic method of doing things, and it is SHAYTAANIpan to even watch it happen without trying to stop it.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

PCG thanks for your perspective but that is not the topic of this thread, we are not here to discuss Taliban and their shariah.

What I am looking for is more historical evidence and what can be derived from the Quran that is an adequate means for promoting and preaching Islam today. I haven't so far but if you can bring references from the Quran it would be great for the discussion.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Peace PyariCgudia

Okay I hear you ... so here is my response ... please remember this response!

1) The ethos of the law of Pakistan is unIslamic because Islam does not only require the manifestation of the law to be in accordance with Shari'ah but also requires its basis to be from Islam. Just because a system resembles Islam in its outwardness it's intention needs to be based on that too.

2) Shari'ah is moulding by gentle persuasion of society towards good. It is seen that primarily poverty needs to be abolished by circulating wealth correctly. The law of Pakistan needs to be enforced on the rich to make this happen. The law in the books is not enough to bring about change.
Shari'ah will establish this change because of it's process of appointing leadership. Thus one of the most unIslamic laws in Pakistan is the method of appointing leadership. This unIslamic method is supposed to be democratic according to the current law books, but even this is not being adhered to. The correct method should be by allegience towards people whose characters are best. Those people who shy from the responsibility of leadership are the best for leadership.

3) It is unIslamic to recognise borders with Muslims, but those people who live in similar states that are not under Shari'ah there is no choice, but the idea and method of the Shari'ah is not to maintain the border, but to envelope all lands with Muslim majority, by allowing Muslims in to country freely. Thus making non-Pakistani Muslims get a visa is not Islamic.

4) Society should at first be encouraged to promote Islam very gently, the media cannot be free as a free media is unIslamic, because there is a risk of spreading mischief. The sins of others need to be kept quiet but the sinners need to be questionned. There is no real free media anyway ... the big players in the media world have a direct agenda of the ones at the top. For this reason the media needs to be detached from all incentives to voice the opinions of the people who pay the money.

5) The country's government needs to be the place that collects zakat and redistribute it, this is not currently on the cards in Pakistan.

6) Taxes are not Islamic nor are the interest charging establishments in Pakistan these need to be ended.

7) Every community needs to establish a group who deal with their affairs like a police who encourage towards good and forbid the evil. They must do so without becoming evil themselves, so they need to be accountable also. The current police needs to change from a law based one to an ethics based one.

That is a few high level ones I can think of. You are right Muslims need to be more in touch with social affairs, environmental affairs, and new technology rather than going for the beards and head scarves. On the other side the good Muslims who provide charity to others need to enlarge their scope and cover other aspects also ... I realise they are now going in to education which is a plus.

Sister ... the word Shari'ah is not bad so please try not to say 'their Shari'ah' ... it is not anyones. It is the Law of God. You as a Muslim I expect loves Shari'ah when implemented correctly?

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Iman se, bhare unreasonable bande ho tum.

Read below for my responses, and you had better remember those responses!

If implemented correctly sure; if not, then EVERY muslim has the right to rebel against it, just as they should be doing ag/ the militants in NWFP that have fled from Afghanistan!

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Oh and again, I need to hear about specific laws you find ridiculously unIslamic in Pakistan. You haven't referred to actual laws.

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

**Peace again PyariCgudia

Read below for answers**

What you are asking for is communism and Marxism, which is a couple of doors down.

No I'm not.

In Islam, you are to institute a system of Zakat which helps the poor. However, in Islam, there is NOTHING that says you must take out your wealth and distribute all of it to the poor, leaving yourself no better off.

I did not make that assertion

Nor does it say that the system should be such that all wealth should be distributed so we're all equal.

I did not say that either ... so we agreeing

Islam says that you need to work for your rozi. Islam says that you need to help the poor. But it certainly doesn't say that you should feed leeches.

Bravo sister full marks so far ... I totally agree ... why is it that you seem to be arguing while agreeing with me?

There are better ways to help alleviate poverty, than what you propose. Creating jobs is one such resource, which Pakistan is doing, judging from its recent growth in construction projects and new businesses, etc.

There is no better way to alleviate poverty than fair distribution of zakat. This does not mean balancing people out, it means giving people on the poverty line a bump up. Jobs are good ... yes I agree.

You are allowed to go to any muslim country you want. No one is stopping you. But what you're calling for is a dissolution of all borders,

No I'm not, please read again. Let's put it this way ... America has the states, Europe has the union, we need Islamic union where possible, such certain by-laws and who to back in sanctions, etc ... may be currency and our own banking system

which is unrealistic, because not every border is shared with a muslim country, and not every border is shared with a safe and well-ruled muslim country. The open border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is one such example.

Borders with Muslim countries need to be present if those Muslim countires are not implementing Shari'ah so hypothetically if Pakistan becomes Shari'ah state then yes I agree there should still be a border with Afghanistan.

Again, nowhere in the Quran or Sunnah does it say that you can't have a legal boundary of governance. In fact, if anything, why was the Islamic empire divided into different provinces ruled by different governors?

This point is now redundant ... as I have agreed

The system of having different Islamic states is not that much different, and furthermore, these states were often created by branching off from non-muslim regimes (ex. Pakistan branching off from Hindu dominated India).

I'm sorry but that was a divide and conquer motion made to look like Muslims were getting their own home

Dissolution of borders would create more instability and is unrealistic.
*Well then if it is unrealistic progress needs to be made to make it less unrealistic. I've heard of the term "divide and conquer" but never have I heard the term "unite and conquer" ... *

So, you support Musharraf!!!! Great! Welcome to our side.

Well ... this response of yours is out of context ... a touch of sarcasm no doubt, but i'll answer it anyway. I do not support the anti-Musharraf people, what I think is that he should be given full security and protection to see him down off the kursi, that is the only way he'll come down is when he feels safe. He should not be taken to trial afterwards. If don't judge him here, then He will Judge him there so we can act in the best interest of Pakistan

Pakistani gov't robs. You want to put money in their hands? I thought you think the government is haraam?

I never have thought that the government is haram. Actually I think that even before Shari'ah is attempted the land needs to be put in to the hands of democrats but with a condition that they allow the promotion of Shari'ah and allow it to proliferate slowly. Currently the government are robbers because the way they have assumed office is unIslamic, go to point number 1 ... we need to appoint the right sort of leader first

Really? Becauses taxes have been levied in Islamic empire periods.

That may be the case ... I do not know if that is true then I retract the tax statement. However, we know that taxes as they are taken in the current climates are not correct

This just means reforming the police, and I think everyone, including the nonmuslims in Pakistan, feel the same way. So, what's so specifically Shariat oriented about this complaint? You can join hands with the Kaafirs in Pakistan, if you wanted, and you'd find you'd have the same agenda.

Except that only Muslim religious and the most pious people should be appointed in those positions

If implemented correctly sure; if not, then EVERY muslim has the right to rebel against it, just as they should be doing ag/ the militants in NWFP that have fled from Afghanistan!

** No not against 'it' ... against 'them' those people who do not correct establish it. And furthermore the manner in which the 'rebelling' is to be done is not by force it is to be done by assuming the correct Shar'ah position oneself and winning over their adherents on to your side.**

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Peace Sister PyariCgudia

You can't have it both ways ... First you say that religion and politics should be kept separate then you support the integrated law system of Pakistan, which is not entirely secular is it?

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Two different things.

I say you should keep religion and state separate in the sense that the state has no right to enforce certain Islamic practices and recommendations. For example, you can mandate Zakat from people. But you cannot mandate a dress code, because everyone has different ideas about what pious dress is and isn't. On one hand you might have someone come in and say only Arab-fashion dresses are permitted, and you'll have many people disagree. On the other hand, you might have someone come and say nudity on beaches is permitted, and again, you'll have lots of people disagree. Moderate laws are needed, and the rest is left up to you. If you want to be a full niqaabi, then fine, no one is stopping you. If you want to do a hijaab or wear a dupatta, no one is stopping you. But dress code should not be a forced thing.

Why? Because even the Quran and Sunnah does not give a perscribed punishment for not covering one's head.

Therefore, the state has no right to impose a punishment either. And if there is no punishment, then there is no legal crime by law, and therefore, its a matter between God and a woman.

Likewise, things like girls getting education - should be allowed, and PROMOTED. That's not done in countries where you do have Islamic law.

You can go and read the punishment of lashes carried out on a girl in Saudia Arabia who was gang raped. Meanwhile, her rapists have gotten an easy punishment of a few years in jail, when their real Islamic punishment should be death by state.

?

Then you wonder why people are suspicious and wary of "Islamic law"?

What you've stated is fine. I agree with some or even most of what you've said in your last post, (not everything), and yet, if you take this utopian system, and have jaahils who do not have a good understanding of Islam execute it as a system, it falls to pieces.

That's why I think religion, at this point in time in history, is better left at home. Strengthen yourselves as people first, then bring it into a system of law.

Muslims are not tolerant, they are not peaceful, they can barely obey the laws that are in place, and they can barely execute the laws that are in place.

What in the WORLD would make you think that these same people would be able to properly and successfully institute Shariah?

You could give them ANY system of law, and they'd mess it up!

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I think there is no such thing as a single Shariah. I think that's a myth perpetuated by certain radical organizations in the UK, who in turn reiterate a linke of political thinking started in Egypt during the colonial era, which bandy about this theory that there is a single mode of Islamic government, and a *single *corpus of law that it enforces. All else being, of course, deviant...

This is obviously not true in theory (schools of thought, Sunni-vs-Shiah, the emphasis of differences rather than similarities on the part of our scholars), and certainly not true in practice. It is (or was) attractive as it follows the rhetorical pattern established by Western and (former) Socialist/Communist ideologues. I want none of it.

Shariah is comprised of a core set of immutable laws and principles that are extended by jurists and exegists through analogy and reason. The extensions are inherently biased by the jurists cultural and political realities. This is neither good nor bad...it's simply how it is.

This *does *pose many problems...we all exist in different cultural and political setups, and so any kind of consensus (which traditionally was very important in fiqh) is nigh impossible to reach. But that's a different discussion...

Given what I said above, I think the question of what Shariat I would like to see is a bit moot...I'd expect to see many versions that fit the cultural context and political sophistication of a particular society. But I think when discussing laws, fear of being meddlesome is hardly ever a concern. Even so, Imposition of Shariah only becomes meddlesome when it is forced on a people who live outside of the socio-political context in which it was developed.

The Taliban/MMA (and the two are intrinsically related) differ from the JI, who in turn differ from the Turkish Virtue Party, who in turn differ from the Egyptian Brotherhood and so on. So whereas the Taliban were welcomed with open arms by the Pashtoons of Afghanistan during their initial push outward from Pakistan, I wouldn't expect the same to be true of Pakistan's urban centers where the JI, or simply non-Islamist traditionalists who care not one bit to separate religion and politics, have a different perception of Shariah. So treating the Taliban and MMA as exemplary is a bit of fear mongering. It's simply impossible for them to win the support, or even force themselves, on Pakistan.

In fact, by being too lenient, you may just as well be disruptive and agitate against popular sentiment. If 99% of the population would be deeply offended at public nudity, even if nudity was defined as bare arms and thighs, allowing that within the law in the name of personal “Freedom”, even if such a thing is not a shared value, is just as meddlesome and imposing on society.

Back to the question of who’s Shariah, we can ask the same question of secularism.

What kind? We won't get Jeffersonian democracy. Far from it. Do we want Turkish style secularism, where women can't wear the Hijab and attain higher education simultaneously? Contrast that with being unable to buy a CD from a street vendor. Or a little girl not being able to go to school. Do we want Algerian style secularism, where during their civil war government troops masqueraded as GIA militants, and massacred people in traditional FIS strongholds to discredit Islamists in general? Contrast that with keeping women locked up in their homes. Do we want Shah-style secularism, where rural people were neglected so much that the Revolution actually saw an increase in female literacy? Do we want Saddam-style secularism? Shia were rounded up and executed en mass...contrast this to the GIA barbarity in Algeria (indeed, some non-mainstream Islamists were guilty of barbarity too)...or even to the Shia saudi girl who was sentenced lashes for being in a car with men she shouldn't have been in a car with, and the sunni men who raped her being given reduced terms(even though this sounds more like a secular case of sectarianism rather than a literalist application of Shariah justice).

I'm not a Utopian. I could care less what version of Shariah takes hold so long as some thought and care is taken in it's establishment. Some is better than none. Nor do I buy the rhetoric of perfection...humans are imperfect and so by their very nature are incapable of implementing a "perfect system". Again, that's just nonsensical marketing from ideologues.

On the contrary, we're obliged and duty bound to make the effort...to work -and it is a lot of work and it is hard work....to establish divine law, not run away from it when we screw up. We will screw up. Secular law or not...you said it yourself. I just don't see how things can get better by sweeping the issue under the rug, which is what separation of religion and state essentially is.

Delaying having kids after marriage for few years?
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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran

Peace PyariCgudia

Actually zakat is not a mandate in Shari'ah. It is an obligation on every legible Muslim to pay on their own accord so hopefully that will surprise you that I have said this. The wave should be that paying zakat should be encouraged and the benefits should be highlighted the same should be the case with hijab. The mandate is jizyah tax.

There should be an ideal dress code but not one that is enforced by law rather it should be one that is delivered by persuasive means.

It is actually against the law in many Western countries to be nude in most public areas, following the thread of this argument I would like to believe that Islam has it's limits on acceptability a bit higher than nudity. Let's say for arguments sake that it makes as a limit for men navel and knee to be seen as unlawful and for women shins and shoulders as unlawful then would this be acceptable as a limit that should not be crossed? I think it should start here.

That is true I agree wholeheartedly ... it shoud be totally a thing that based on the condition of society.

That is where I cannot agree. The state develops laws as and when necessary. There is no punishment in Islam for litter throwing but in a state it may be necessary to put a small punishment for this act to prevent it. It is the states expert decision that enables the strengthening and weaking of law that is extractable from the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is not a requirement for the punishment to be there in order for the state to have a right to exercise it.

That is another double edged statement. If the countries are not promoting girls to be educated then those countries cannot be implementing Islamic law. Islamic law favours the education of the woman over the man ... did you know that? Obviously not ...

Their real Islamic punishment should be death? Well at least you know that Saudi therefore are not implementing real Islam ... Good on ya!

Yes I do wonder ... when they can easily distinguish themselves about what is "fake" Islamic law and what is "real" Islamic law they still blame the law not the people who implement it ... Of course I wonder why ... No ... actually I don't ... people in their hearts do not want even the "real" Islamic law and they justify their stance by using the "fake" Islamic law to add fuel to their ultra liberal arguments. Hopefully this excludes you sister.

That is not a fair assessment because you can take jaahils to implement any system and it will fall to pieces. Look at Pakistan now! Is it not a case of democracy run by jaahils falling to pieces? Islamic Shari'ah is not utopian it is practical the more utopian system is actually democracy.

To strengthen ourselves as people we need to start from our homes correct? And where did you say religion should be left? At home right? Thus it is truly religion at home that will strengthen us as people at home only then can we take the religion out. I totally agree. Leaving our religions at home while we go out is akin to a knight who goes out to fight without his armour on.

That is why people like yourself sister need to show that not only are Muslims good at keeping law and being tolerant but we can be better than people of any other following at being law abiding. We need to take society and have it bestow in us the trust that we can lead it. This is the challenge of the positive thinking Muslim today. InshaAllah you are one of them.

Nothing in the world can make me think that these same intolerant people can establish Shari'ah sister that is why my focus is on the educated Muslims and non-Muslims to sell Islam to them. Don't you feel the people who understand Islam better aught to begin to take over ownership of the identity of the Muslim?

quite

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Re: Mechanisms for spreading Islam in Quran


Indeed... the first chapter of the Quran confirms this also. Ihdinaa al Siraat al mustaqeem: Guide us to the path/strata (from which this word is derived) of those who are the best establishers.


I think you have nailed it, but I am not sure if you still think if the motive was anthropromorphic or strategic.

My Friend is angry on me...
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Not sure why you would say anthropomorphic. Clarify please.

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I have still not seen any references from either Quran or hadith about spreading Islam agressively and imperially. This was the intent of my thread. All the references I know of that talk about preaching Islam are not in the context of war or battle.

So far my opinion is that wars that were under taken by the early Islamic state were for protection of the state from other imperial powers of its time or create bufferzones and bring the bordering Arab tribes into unification with the rest of Arabia to strengthen the foundations of the state. Most of the expansion which occured in Umar RA time, still records exist that he was always reluctant to conquer further areas or plunder for wealth though the fall of the Persian empire brought great wealth to the muslim state as well as from the Byzantine empire. It was not to bring people into Islam en masse but to provide a better governance of the areas under muslim rule (which it did). The option of Jizya indicates that people entering Islam en masse or by force was not important as much as being at peace with muslims and not being hostile towards them for being muslim or for preaching Islam peacefully.

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very good post. your posts are always well reasoned and eloquent. all in all i have found you to be one of the most sensible posters in the religion forum.

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lol just noticed this... This is why one should not type while half a sleep. I meant "philanthropic"...

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Must agree with that.

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Relative to whats in your neighborhood. Present day muslim states are not in the position to promote philanthropic interests by many standards. Centuries ago, we were compared to the two major empires of that time at our borders.