Abdul Basit I am still waiting for Verse which says Abu Jahil will not accept Islam. Please prove your point you made before.
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Originally posted by khan_sahib:
** array bhai, why don't u quote the ayat from quran that says messiah is dead?**
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Thank you Khan Bhai for your input. I was waiting on your green light!
To make this a little more productive, I will try to answer 'one' ayat provided by those who belive in Jesus (as) to be present in heaven alive ... and 'one' ayat that proves that he died a natural death, in this world, like all the other prophets!
Sounds fair enough?
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[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited September 07, 2001).]
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif
Why you people don’t open a thread on geography of Damascus. I don’t know how it is related to my original question.
sorry Khan_sahib. I shall open new one.
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[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 07, 2001).]
Thanks changes like
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Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** Thank you Khan Bhai for your input. I was waiting on your green light!
'one' ayat provided by those who belive in Jesus (as) to be present in heaven alive ... and 'one' ayat that proves that he died a natural death, in this world, like all the other prophets!
**
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Thank you ahmadjee,
I believe and I doubt if any muslim will disagree with me that there is any flaw in Quran (naooz o billah) as people have tried to find flaws for ages but couldn't find any flaw in Quran coz it is the book of Allah.
I also believe that if there is one ayah on one issue in Quran and there is another one then both should give the same meaning as this book is free of any mistake.
Now, let me know both the ayahs and we will start from there.
Khan Sahib,
You said it so right that there can be no contradiction in Quran! I hope the others following this thread also feel the same way!
The first reference from Quran about the 'ascending to heaven of Jesus (as)' given here is:
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Allah says in Koraan:
And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.
(The Holy Quran, An-Nisa, 4:159)
I don't think Jews and Christians believe that Jesus is apostle of Allah, now do they?
For that reason, when he later comes and Jews and Christians MUST believe that he is Prophet of Allah and then he will die. As the verse says 'must believe in him BEFORE his death...".
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So, the argument is, as Jews and Christian don't believe in him to be the apostale, but they 'MUST' before Jesus(as) dies. And when he will come back they will believe in him & therefore he is alive! Right?
Now, If the translation & interpretation of the above mentioned ayat were taken to be true, just for the sake of the argument, then it clearly contradicts the following Quranic verses:
Both these translations are taken from 'King Fahd Holy Qur-ãn Printing Complex'
Talking about Christians Allah says:
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: *so We stirred up enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment *.... (5:14/15)
Talking about the Jews Allah says:
... I will make those who follow thee superior to those *who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection *... (3:55/56)
Now both of the above Quranic verses, Allah tell us that there will be Christians & Jews alivewho will not believe in Hazrat Isa (as) as a prophet at the day of judgment!
Meaning, Christians will adhere to their beliefs of calling Hazrat Isa (as) as the son of God (Nozobillah) and Jews will be alive considering him a liar (Naozobillah)
... but if Hazrat Isa (as) is to return before the Day of Judgment, as is claimed by the interpretation, then how can they not believe *in him to be a prophet? Also, the translation *'must believe in him BEFORE his death' turns out to clearly contradict the above verses!
The true translation of this verse presented in the argument is:
"And there is none among the People of the Book but will believe in it (the crucifixion of Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness among them."
Ok, so is it my turn to present the argument that Hazrat Isa (as) had died a natural death like all other Prophets of Allah? :)
Please do not worry, I will prove it from non-ahmadi translation of Quran. So there be no doubts!
As my first proof, I present to you *Surat Al-Maida(5), Verses 118/119 *
As per the Ahmadiyya translation of the Holy Quran:
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And when ALLAH **will **say, `O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things;
I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship ALLAH, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
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And From the 'King Fahd Holy Qur-ãn Printing ' The translation goes …
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And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and **I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up **Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
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Here I bolded two part of the Verses.
First, I bolded the word 'will' to emphasize that the verse is talking about the day of the judgment!
Secondly, Non-Ahmadies translate ‘Falama Tawafatanee’ as 'Thou dist take me up' and Ahmadies translate it 'Thou didst cause me to die', the rest of the translation is the same!
Though we can go on to discuss the word 'Tawafa' here but let save it for later!
Now, taking the Non-Ahmadi translation as to be correct, we see that it totally contradicts the notion that Hazrat Isa (as) coming back to this earth. As he denies when Allah asks him about the Christian belief!
If he does come back before the day of Judgment, as is claimed by Non-Ahmadies, then he will know that the Christians believe in him as God’s son validating it from his own teachings.
But here we see that Allah tells us that Hazrat Isa (as) will deny the knowledge of any such preaching & will be the witness against the Christians!
I was hoping for something in response ...
Sorry, I had completely forgotten about it due to weekend.
I am glad that you agree with me on the point that there can’t be contradiction in Quran.
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I quote from the same surah which you have quoted. i.e. Surah An-Nissa 4:157
What do you make of this translation. I don’t know if that’s the translation you have or something different. Please let me know.
Pardon my ignorance but what do you mean by King Fahd Holy Quran?
As far as your quote regarding An-Nissa 4:159, I am little confused as are you not saying that if Jews and Christians haven't yet accepted Messiah as Allah's apostle then how can Hazrat Ahmad be a messiah when Christians and Jews yet don't follow the teaching of Hazrat Ahmad.
I am sure that after the ayah I have quoted earlier there shouldn't be any misunderstanding regarding the "falamma tawafaitanni".
You should speak to any Arabic speaking person and he will tell you that "wafat" doesn't
necessarily means death. It is normally used to refer if someone is "out of sight" as we know
Quran was sent in Arabic language and we shouldn't take the Urdu meaning of wafat.
True and well said.
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Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**I was hoping for something in response ...
**
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I have a mutual feeling. :)
Does anyone else has anything to add.
Sorry Khan_Sahib!
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.... What do you make of this translation. I don't know if that's the translation you have or something different. Please let me know.
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The translation of Surah Al-Nisah, ayat 157 is:
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4:158. And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
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Jee bhai, please make your argument!
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Pardon my ignorance but what do you mean by King Fahd Holy Quran?
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The mistake is mine! I am quoting the Quran from a website by the MSA of some university. I tried to search for the translator but couldn't find but they did mention that the translation is taken from Quran published by King Fahad Company.
The point was just to clearify that its not the Ahmadi translation.
The site is book marked at my work computer, so I will post the link here in the morning!
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As far as your quote regarding An-Nissa 4:159, I am little confused as are you not saying that if Jews and Christians haven't yet accepted Messiah as Allah's apostle then how can Hazrat Ahmad be a messiah when Christians and Jews yet don't follow the teaching of Hazrat Ahmad.
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The gist of my argument was to contradict the translation presented by Abdul Basit of the verse 4:159 from the other verses of Quran (5:14/15, 3:55/56), and thus proving that his interpretation & translation is wrong.
The other way would have been a long & lengthy detail about the Arabic text and grammar, which I think none of us is capable to carry on.
That being argued, I quoted the true translation done by the Ahmadies which does not contradict Quran of the verse!
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The true translation of this verse presented in the argument is:
"And there is none among the People of the Book but will believe in it (the crucifixion of Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness among them.(4:159)"
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The translation points out that the Christians will keep believing in Jesus (as) crucifixion (and so on their false philosophies of atonement & salvation) but Jesus (as) will be a witness against them on the day of judgment!
I hope that explain a little better!
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You should speak to any Arabic speaking person and he will tell you that "wafat" doesn't
necessarily means death. It is normally used to refer if someone is "out of sight" as we know
Quran was sent in Arabic language and we shouldn't take the Urdu meaning of wafat.
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I agree.
One of the meanings of 'wafat' is also 'sleeping' & the other might be 'out of sight' but you have to agree that one meaning is also death! Right?
And also, 'out of sight' doesn't necessarily means 'out in the sky' either!
i have a question about the judgement day and any hadiths that apply to that. when is it coming, what will happen on judgement day, etc.