He’s ermm a little busy:
[thumb=D]juice2.JPG[/thumb]
ohhh, acha now i understand. love is a wonderful thing.
Fraudia: Yours was a nice response. The difference though between what you wrote and what I wrote is that the majority of posts in Gupshup’s WA Forum (certainly not all) by those that I have been able to identify as Americans generally live up to your Manifesto. For the most part, the Americans who came to Gupshup following 9/11 who were filled with hate and anger for Muslims and Islam have long since disappeared from here. I can’t say the same thing about the majority of posts written by those I believe to be Muslim. Things have gotten particularly bad in recent months.
Let me re-post parts of my very first post in GS. It may help some understand the viewpoint I came here with over two years ago.
We have all been moved by the words of many Muslim clerics participating in prayer services mourning our dead. If there is any good that has come from the terrible events of 2 weeks ago, it is that Americans of all faiths, colors, and political persuasions have realized their strength comes from a human unity of interest rather from segregation based on petty differences. This is not nationalist fervor either. It transcends borders, nations and faiths. It is only through embracing our Pakistani, Muslim, Jewish, Palestinian, Latin American, etc. brothers and sisters that we as peoples of the world can find peace and harmony. Some of your BB posters seem to think the 100 hate crimes perpetrated in America against Muslims or people of Arab heritage since the WTC attack show our heart. I tell you that the 285 million Americans who have embraced and are concerned for the safety of the 10 Million Muslims within our borders reveals our heart. The prompt denunciation, investigation, arrest and future prosecution of the perpetrators of these hate crimes tells you about what we believe.
….
"The killing of innocent people is a despicable and heinous act that is accepted by neither religion nor human sensibility," -- Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of Cairo's Al-Azhar, Islam's oldest and most prominent religious institution after the attack on the WTC. By celebrating an attack on America, "we are violating our own cultural edicts," said Ahmed Bishara, head of Kuwait's National Democratic Movement. "We are not Muslims anymore if we do this. There are norms and rules for fighting your enemy and getting your rights."** *
My impression of Muslims and Islam generally (limited as it was) was based upon what I then knew and heard and my business and personal interaction with a Muslim Pakistani. Despite the WTC attack, my impressions were favorable. I felt that further engaging Muslims from around the world would result in even more favorable impressions on my part and, hopefully, on theirs about me.
In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I offered my legal services without charge to two foreign born Muslims in the event they were contacted by the FBI and/or other authorities and needed help. One was someone I knew personally. Another was one I knew only through Gupshup postings and PMs.
I came here with respect not hate.
My attitudes have been shaped and changed by my experience on GS but not in the ways or directions I had expected and hoped. There are some fine examples of Muslims posting respectful and thoughtful ideas/criticisms/comments regarding America in GS. You are one of them. I may disagree with you and you with me but I have never felt your contributions came from a hateful and angry heart. Because of this, someone like you is far more likely to move/change/moderate my opinion on an issue than someone who spews venom and hate. That is one of the points of my posting this thread. If I am to reach out to the Muslim community in the world at large, my opinions of that community are going to be shaped by the feedback I receive. When the majority of that feedback is hate and anger, what do you think my opinion will be? I am left to determine whether the vocal majority is truly representative of the Muslim community or whether there is a silent majority that is more moderate. There are times when a majority simply cannot remain silent or they may unfairly suffer from the broad brush paintings of the vocal minority.
As to being MIA: Goodness, can’t anybody go to sleep or turn off their computer or perform work for their employer for a while without being accused of hiding?
MV I understand where you are coming from, but i would say the same I have said before #1 do not take cricism as hate, and secondly, do not base your opinion on the interaction you have with a few people on touchy subjects..who just happen to post a lot. I have advised all others who have shown an interest in understanding muslims and understanding pakistanis to check out general, cafem culture as well, u will be exposed to a larger number of people, and add to it, meet some Pakistanis and muslims in yoru own area.
It really is no different than the advice i gave to one of my young hot blooded and rather misguided cousins back in pakistan who had formed opinions of americans based on talkign heads on news shows, statements by americans on yahoo discussions etc.
It would be a sad loss to have you be less positive based on the ineraction with a handful of people, just like it would have been a loss if my cousin had let what slivers of american nation guide his view rather than seeing the whole picture.
I have seen people post very negative, taunting, jeering posts about my faith, not only in other places but here, and tried to engage with them to educate, communicate and discuss, but it appeared that the people in question had no interest in discussion or understanding but just jeering. Ihave not let that form my opinion of their faith or nationality.
as far as majority remaining silent...that is not the case, the majority is talking..you just have to engage them, they are talking on this forum, in our neighbourhoods and communities, but they will nto stick out like a sore thumb..the majority..as i was at one point, and as many are on thsi board do not get into the arguments that go on all the time. You may need to make an effort and look for them in other places rather than the same handful of sparring partners in WA :)
P.S. you were nto sleeping or working or had turned your computer off, spies have indicated that you were checking out some rather interesting threads..:P
Nadia: The issue I raise is not one of expecting “vigorous debate on a political forum.” As a trial lawyer, I vigorously debate for a living. In any vigorous debate we have had on Palestine, have you ever seen me vigorously debate by saying something like: “The IDF killed three more Palestinian children today. 
Keep up the good work Ariel!!! :k:”
I am not saying that YOU have done similar either. I am saying that such forms of “vigorous debate” are becoming all too common on GS. That is not debate. That is just plain offensive. What conclusions do you think I am entitled to draw, if any, when such offensive comments are met with total silence and/or support from others rather than condemnation?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
P.S. you were nto sleeping or working or had turned your computer off, spies have indicated that you were checking out some rather interesting threads..:P
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the reply. It took awhile for me to explore and become a regular poster in General. Cafe gives me hives. I love the jokes forum and have posted there on several occasions. Methinks that the spies found me perusing there one night and saved that precious little image. I've got to give them their props for that one. Pretty funny. Now I know how you must feel with that FBI spook following you everywhere you go. I'm now in favor of rescinding the GupShup version of the Patriot Act and allowing people to view threads anonymously.
Actually it would spring from the fact that some of the bombs dropped and launched from Americans on Iraq and Afghanistan had such cute and open-minded slogans on it such as, “Hope Allah’s wearing Kevlar”, or “From America with love”, or “Say Ahhh!”, or the most adorable one, “Happy Ramadan”… It’s things like that on which we just feel a sense of overwhelming love for the Americans and their ‘liberationist’ and ‘Demonocrisation’ of other countries…
Don’t expect sympathies if you aren’t willing to spare them yourselves…In fact, in dealing with Muslims, be ready to face some reprisals in the form of suicide soldiers expressing their love for American policies…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
MV,
Obviously a lot of effort has gone into this post of yours. Thank you.
I can respond point-by-point to the issues you have raised, and I may when I have a bit of time on my hands, at this point, I'll just make a general comment.
US is a land of immigrants. Its only a difference in time line. Your ancestors may have arrived in this land seven generations ago, compared to your next door Indian neighbor who is a second generation American. That does not afford you any more or less rights. If we go by ancestory, Indian tribes are probably the noblest of them all. That is not to say that the great strides made in the last two hundred years by America, Americans and the whole US society is any small feat. How much of that would be possible had the founding fathers closed the doors of immigration in 1787 is something which is not even worth debating. So, lets get off that high horse. US is what it is today because of immigrants.
Criticizing some aspects of US policies, mainly foreign policies, is a natural by-product of being the lone super-power in the world. Almost all countries of the world have defects in their policies, some honest ones and some due to hidden desires. US takes the brunt of that criticism because with immense power comes immense responsibilities. US is no longer the isolationist nation of pre-WWII era, and with the praise will come the redicule. You have to take it, analyze it, agree or disagree and reach your own conclusions.
If GS brings a few of us together in terms of thoughts and our perception on issues, great. If it brings more discord and animosity, too bad.
[/QUOTE]
Faisal:
Didn’t mean to ignore your early reply to my post. I would be very interested to learn your point-by-point views on my post.
As to your general comments re: immigration. I concur totally. I am not one of those seventh generation Americans you speak of. I am a second generation American who is a product of immigrants from Eastern Europe. If our doors ever close to immigration, we will be a poorer nation because of it. Whether our doors close and whether Americans (of all or any generation) tolerate such closing is largely dependent upon whether we perceive that our security can be guaranteed with an open door policy. One would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to recognize that a certain segment of the world community poses a threat to that security. If the threat is perceived of as small and manageable, the doors stay open. If it is large and unmanageable, they close (at least to those who might most likely be part of the threat). The nature of actions in response to unmanageable situations is that they become over-inclusive. Witness the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. When hate and anger is the predominant thing people like me see when we engage the Muslim community (wherever that might be), we are heading down the wrong path. Perhaps the WA forum of GS is not the representative community we should base our decisions on. Perhaps GS itself is not the representative community we should base our decisions on. However, those are the communities some of us found when we decided we would like to engage.
As to your general comments re: criticism. You write: “Criticizing some aspects of US policies, mainly foreign policies, is a natural by-product of being the lone super-power in the world.” No one is above ** some ** criticism. But let me ask you, on a personal level, how would you react if ALL you ever received from a person was criticism. Let’s say you exhausted every ounce of your energy in a frantic effort to save one of two people who were drowning in the ocean. What if the reaction of all on shore who watched and did nothing to help was criticism of you for not being strong enough to swim back out and save the other person who drowned. If you are a parent, do you think it is helpful to only criticize your child? If you have friends (and since I’m a lawyer this one is murky territory for me), do you only criticize them for their faults? Isn’t it better policy in life to thank people for some things they do for you instead of spitting on them for what they didn’t do? Isn’t it better all the way around to recognize and applaud the accomplishments of your children and friends when mixing in your criticism of their faults? And isn’t there a big difference between well-meaning and constructive criticism and hate-filled venting of criticism which only antagonizes?
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And isn’t there a big difference between well-meaning and constructive criticism and hate-filled venting of criticism which only antagonizes?
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Yes, there is huge difference. Unfortunately political discussions on gupshup are filled with much more of the latter. No one is saying the US is above criticism. Obviously as the world’s sole superpower, the US is going to step on some toes and be justly criticized for it. As the leader in the world movement to democracy, any perceived non-democratic move by the US will be scrutinized. All that is fair game. But when it becomes nothing more than constant, antagonistic insults from a self-righteous and immovable position, it becomes unbearable. Throw in biased censorship that allows any and all off-topic, anti-American insults to stay while deleting relevant pro-American rebuttals, and it is an exercise in futility. Most minds seem to be made up and it becomes more of an exercise to see how insulting a post can be.
My only gripe with Americans is that they don't use lotas.
SEminole and MV, i canbunderstand when you say you feel that you face a constant barrage of criticism which you feel is not constructive but negative in nature.
Now, put yourself in my shoes for a second, and realize what I face when i turn on the radio or watch the TV. and the people with those views there are not random nicks on some website but journalists and supposed experts, who are insensitive and get away by saying things that are just idiotic.
For all that matters that is one thing I have always appreciated about the govt officials (well aside from boykin) that they take great care in trying to spell things out rather than just use a blanket "muslim" term.
On BBC website there was a story about how american expats are feeling in UK with the wave of public sentiment about the war going the other way, it was interesting to read it because that is how many of us feel, they felt ppl around them were personally holding them liable for their elected govts actions, heck here we are sometimes made to feel responsible for a fragmented population of 1B+ and the actions of some fringe element in it who no one put into power.
Communication is not just being able to get one's point across and to have the other person agree all the time, it is also to understand the other person's perspective and still maintain a dialogue. its simple but we dont have to agree all the time, but we have to learn how to disagree also. Sadly there is too much of my way or the highway mentality that i see everywhere these days
Fraudz,
I feel for ya man.
And undoubtedly these are very uncomfotable times for you and people can indeed be idiots. Please continue to fight the good fight with dignity and honor. Ultimately you will be respected by holding your head high.
That is not to say cave in. Hold your views, argue passionately, from your heart, as you have, and time will pass and things will resolve.
My only regret is that things seem to be deteriorating, and people are more polarized, not less. A low grade war with skirmishes, suicide bomb explosions and tomahawk strikes coulded go on for decades. There is no natural resolution, no leader to make peace, no treaty that can be signed. The more I see, the more I am convinced that this is the beginning of World War IV. (WWIII being the Cold War).
You hold a unique position, as does Gupshup. As a Muslim American you are a bridge between cultures. Gupshup is more than a debating society, and a social club, it is a place where the internet connected can seek out original information, rather than that filtered by the media. You are the best of America, you give it breadth and strength, and like my relatives years ago, your toe hold is secure but small. Make the best of it.
I would repeat what others have already said here: To take the viewpoint of those who post in WA forums as representative of Gupshup members as a whole is a fallacy. Those who post there tend to be pretty hardedned politicians - including the pro-America contingent IMO. Similar process is evident in the Religion forum where you get debates floundering among the cut and paste scholars who are bona-fide pros, no less - everyone else is left scratching their heads.
In real life most people don’t concern themselves so deeply in every subject…in fact most people are too busy earning a living to bother with it. I’m always amazed at the amount of Indians who post very deep negative analyses of islam here for example. I never meet any of these people in everyday life…which is probably just as well
Maybe MV, OG and UTD should have a look in the Shor Sharaba (entertainment) Forum and take a look at how many Pakistanis are posting positive reviews of American films for example. You guys need to take a look around othe forums once in a while - barring that, learn urdu and dive into Cafe and let rip with the smilies 
Xtreme,
Dude, I won the stock market competition, I view the Images every week (Thap's apartment looks empty, kids are cute all over the world, let's not mention feet, Desi men are either car crazy or believe they are male models, desi women post their pictures for one nanosecond, and the vacation pictures are the best) , Most of cafe my daughter could babysit, and Urdu makes my head hurt. I don't trade recipes, and the Corner Room is definitely not my gig.
What you are suggesting is that to know you is to love you, and we have to work a little harder to know you. After two years, I've paid my dues. The Americans who have posted in general are trying to get across a message. You may not like the message, you may discredit the messenger, or you may think that the message is not really representative of most Americans.
Take it for what you will. But the effort is sincere.
Don’t quote me on this but i believe it’s the latter :halo:
trying-to-inject-less-tension-into-this-thread-nadia
Judgeing by the "Zoolanderish" faces I believe you are correct! :)
You obviously haven’t seen the new look I’m working on “neela loya”
:roman:
And the apartment is looking a lot fuller these days, I blame the parathay for sehri.
I am very much in agreement with Fraudia here, good job Fraudz :k:.
OG, many “anti-Americans” (thats what they are called if they don’t agree with “American” policies) are doing the same thing as you are… “trying to get across a message” and the message is that what US govt is doing is not right, policies are not right, an inward look is necessary etc.
People who “cheer with joy” on death of American soldiers are not really happy because an “American” soldier died, they feel that with death of every American soldier comes a chance that US public will stand up and tell the govt to clear the mess it has created… thats what I think. Nobody likes to see anyone die, all are human, everyone wishes that there be peace and harmony in the world and everyone happy.
"People who "cheer with joy" on death of American soldiers are not really happy because an "American" soldier died"
Based on the smilie count, as well as comments such as "Dropping like flies on a Camel Turd", I believe you are wrong. The name calling of Western leaders (dang, I didn't vote for dubya), convinces me that policy change is less important than sensing a moment when the US is struggling, and giving them a kick.
My impression is that any opportunity to poke the US in the eye is a happy event, deaths included.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
People who "cheer with joy" on death of American soldiers are not really happy because an "American" soldier died, they feel that with death of every American soldier comes a chance that US public will stand up and tell the govt to clear the mess it has created... thats what I think.
[/QUOTE]
Assuming that is true for a moment, what I am saying is that the "cheering" has the opposite effect. The "cheering" conveys the perception of hatred and animosity. As I have said before, this kind of communication has actually hardened my opinion that we are doing the right thing and leads me to believe that the clash of civilizations is inevitable. Pictures of Palestinians celebrating after terror attacks have the same impact on Americans.
Compare the cheering method of communicating with something like this:
"My God, four more American soldiers have been killed today. It is a tragic loss when the youngest of your country are dieing daily and there just doesn't seem to be an end in sight. The Iraqi soil has soaked up too much blood, Iraqi and American, already. Isn't it time to change what America is doing?"
The VietNam anti-war movement did not ultimately prevail because young people were in the streets cheering the return of body bags. We did not cheer the victories of the enemy. That movement prevailed and changed public opinion because we mourned the loss of our brothers, fathers, and friends in a faraway place pursuing a cause we didn't understand or support. We mourned every one of them as their names etched in stone at their Memorial attests.
You want to impact American thought? Convince us why the cause is not just. Tell us why you think the blood our servicemen shed is not going to ultimately be worth the price paid. But don't cheer or mock our dead.