Manifesto of an American Guppy

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

For some reason, this is such a sad thread. Perhaps we all have failed at understanding each other and our respective differences - what hope for our own governments if even a handful of individuals on a political forum feel and behave in this manner.

Am i the only one (as usual) who finds some of the comments expressed in here, so sad. Despite the two years of engagement/discussion/conflicts/arguments, have any of us become truly closer to attaining any sort of mutual respect or understanding of each other's perspectives?

22

[quote]

I can tell you more than you need to know about images of Mad Scientists feet. I have exchanged pictures of my pets with Nadia, and given Sadi advice on her ageing overweight cat. I have read the Surah each day. We have all had brief lessons in Urdu, as well as the history of the languages, and similarities to neighboring languages.

[/quote]

  1. I frankly cannot understand how the conversation turned from me talking about kids to some one's feet.

  2. So you have talked about animals with two females out of how many guppies here? I am sure if there was a forum discussing weather we would all have come across each other and thats the point I am trying to make. We are defined by our opinions about culture, sports, home making, politics etc. If you are here to learn, then I humbly submit that you learn about all these facets and not make a judgement about us based on your experiences in just one forum. Also give us an oppurtunity to get to know you better by giving us the benefit of your opinions/experiences on other topics.

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What have you done lately?

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Lets see, I can speak your language perfectly as well as a few others, I know the history of your language and your country, I can name most of your presidents, all of the states and the state capitals. I can also tell you about the best jazz and blues places in 12 U.S cities even though I am not a jazz fan. I can also tell you all you need to know about Texas style brisket. I know more than two caucasian americans with whom I have regular conversations about everything from pets to politics,a nd if you are ever in Texas, I can tell you about the best little places to get everything from Cowboy gear (Bandera, Texas) to fresh peaches (Freidricksburg, Texas). I will add to this as I think of more things.

[quote]

I can assure you that every American here has suffered insults and profanity, even if quickly removed. We are guests in your virtual house, and from time to time we have been treated embarrassingly badly.

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First of all, I apologize for the insults and profanity that you have suffered, that is certainly not our way to treat guests, and if you get to know us better you will find out what position guests have in our society. The keepers of the house (the mods) however can only remove offensive posts they cannot guess what everyone is going to post. Their are people whose emotions get the better of them and if they do not control themselves they are banned.

Secondly and more importantly, you will have to go with one of the two: are you guests in our virtual home or is the server we are using on american soil and as you keep reminding us we ouselves are guests in your country and by virtue of that fact we should not say what is on our minds. You will notice that we place no such restriction on you the virtual guests.

If you are here to understand how we feel then be ready to hear whats on people's minds (not thier insults and profanities...thats wrong). We are after all a reflection, a cross section of our country and our background, we are not going to say "Hey I am fine with whatever you guys do, I have no idea why that guy is burning your flag"

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Look at the counts of the posts each one of us has.

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Again almost all of these posts have been posted in which forum? I am still waiting to see for example Ohio Guy's fabulous recipe for Pecan pie/ice cream/stuffing.

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Perhaps you are underestimating our effort.

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Not at all, all of us here acknowledge your efforts which is why I am responding right now in this way intead of in this way: "You $#@%@$% why don't you $%@$#?" etc. etc. etc.

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Ohioguy and Myvoice, i am sorry to say this but you dont represent the common american. More like you represent a lobby/pressure group. I belong to two forums run by americans, politics is the main topic and heck i havent been banned since sept 11th for my views shows something about the calibre of posters and their desire to exchange ideas.

I am in the US every six months. Its been like that since 1998 or 1997. So i am in regular contact with americans and even in geneva i spend alot of time with american study abroad students from my old undergrad college. The views i here from these people vary, but do sharply contridict the view you and ilk provide on gupshup.

A majority of the people feel that Bush has done more to make the world more dangerous for americans than make it safer. This includes ardent republicans who would vote for him because of family values and other policies instead of FP. They are also willing to understand.

You guys arent. I could go through examples where you guys have said it is ok for Americans to kill children. Its ok for the soliders to wipe out entire cities etc. You arent here to learn. If you were you wouldnt have everybody on the politics forums gunning for you. You are here to portray one side of the story and stick to it. Propoganda in other words.

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

I never said I was the only American Guppy on the board. Some Americans, whether naturalized or not, may not agree with my opinions. They're free to agree or disagree.

[/QUOTE]

The title of your thread is misleading then cos you are only representing yourself and probably OhioGuy, Stu, Seminole and UndertheDome. Not me and few others. Change it to something like "Manifesto of Myvoice". Cause, I for one dont feel the same way as you do or want any changes made to GS to appease me personally. Like already mentioned, just the handful of you guys dont represent The America.

25

MV I agree with you 100% on all your points, no argument from me. In teh same spirit, I would like to show you how americans can do better as well.

Those of us who are muslim as well as american find ourselves in a position where we see shortfalls in what many muslims are doing, as well as what many americans are doing.

  1. Shed as many tears for non americans who are killed by americans as you profess to do when americans die at the hands of non American soldier.
  2. Recognize and express that even though there is a substantive moral difference between an Iraqi child killed by an American weapon during a firefight and the beheading of Daniel Pearl they are both innocent lives lost and not just numbers.
  3. Stop posting smilies every time a daisy cutter is dropped. do not parade jingoism as patriotism. there is no problem in being a patriot..we all are, but there is a problem in being a "jingo" :)
  4. If and when you condemn an action by Us military that resulted in the loss of innocent life, don’t follow up your condemnation with “But …. “
  5. When Non-Americans risk their lives to stop terrorists somewhere in the world, a simple “Thanks” will go a long way with us.
  6. Don’t compare any dictator with Hitler without acknowledging that we indeed did support him when it was in our interest. Our actions are not altruistic all the time and have our interests at heart so lets not insist on showing them as altruistic
  7. Realize that the wealth Americans have has been earned and not given to us.
  8. Start demanding that our money is spent properly and on the right stuff. we have education crises, health care problems and other issues that needed more attention than war
  9. Do not say that our purpose in Afghanistan was to liberate Afghani women, that may have beene a by product, while we do nothing about conditions for women in our ally countries. same goes for supporting some dictators and going after others sayign we are there to give ppl freedom
  10. Recognize that Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell may not present as direct of a danger to muslims as OBL presents to everyone, but still that they are a problem and inciting hatred is not a good thing and should speak up about it.
  11. Realize that I am not responsible for the failings of my forefathers, any more than you are.
  12. Acknowledge once in a while that, at some point, Americans must look inward to find improvements in their lives rather than going on believing that they are hated by the rest of the world because of jealousy or something.
  13. Understand that representative democracies take time to develop and that we should not be exporting our ideas only when it suits our interests and continue to support ppl like royal families all over middle east, and even saddam back in the day. .
  14. Recognize that the hate and anger we see emanating from the radical fringes of America directed at muslims disturbs us.
  15. Recognize that Muslims who interact with americans are desperately trying to show examples that will make non muslims comfortable believing that the hate and anger emanating from the radical fringes of Islam represent only the radical fringes and not the majority of all Muslims, and that americans do not view all muslims by the actions of a few fringe groups. although almost 50% believe so according to some survey..and this was even before 9/11
  16. Recognize that not giving attention to the moderate element of Muslims in the face of news stories only focusing on the extremists leads us to believe that there may not be an interest to listen to moderate muslims. Recognize that moderate muslims did not garner enough interest prior to 9/11 to really show the rest of america what we are like. although some programs on PBS showcase different things once in a while, muslims do not even resigster in our entertainment industry in a positive or atleast non-negative light except for the show 7th heaven and whoopi, but are star baddies in other shows..agency for example.
  17. do not take criticism as hate, do not take someone mocking you as hate, because as americans we have criticised many people and countries, ranging from french and brits to Japanese and Chinese.
  18. Do not look at any muslim who is not in agreement with everything that is going on as anti-US. if you scratch the surface you will see that they may have more serious reservations about their own govts actions. similarly do not wonder about american muslims patriotism when they are not on board with issues such as war, theya re probably against other issues like taxation and traffic :) just like their non-muslim american neighbours

Speaking of hateful messages, ever had a chance to look at yahoo boards? I remember one posting that just bothered me extremely, this was during the Dc sniper hunt. Some "Rhodes Scholar" wrote..if this is a muslim doing this, I hereby authorize the klan to blow up all mosques.

We have idiots on both sides, we have to be wary of them, and accept that the idiots will be on both sides, and they will be loud and obnoxious, but they are not representative of the people. we should also recognize that criticism is not hate, I do not like saudi policies, i criticize saudi govt and some actions of the people, but that does not mean I hate saudis.

Focus more on people you can communicate with, recognize that we run into non muslim americans who are not as understanding as you, including those who yell obsceneties at us as we stand and sing the national anthem on the 4th of July, but we dont focus on them. They may be loud and they may have a lot to say, but we know that they dont represent majority of americans, use the same logic.

26

Voice, two cents very briefly: I totally agree that ‘these people’ need to learn to communicate and watch what they say, when and where.

Nevertheless, as you put it yourself, all this anger is directed towards ‘policy’ not everything about USA. Millions of Americans are provoked by the turf wars of Pentagon and the State department. So, what if a few not gringo-looking tax-paying citizens share their views.

The same people were/are proud to call USA home during the Clinton years and even during the four of the elected Bush, when war-profiteering used to be comparably low-key.

27

Fraudz,

Very thoughtful.

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OG gracias amigo, although I amhurt that when u noted your personal communications with ppl on variety of subjects i was not mentioned..bah no more insight and perspective for you. just call me the Pm Nazi now a la soup nazi from seinfeld...

no PM for you

29

Fraudz,

I do indeed consider you a friend, and have enjoyed our discussions.

Happy now? :)

30

^ danke

Happy, no..pleasantly reassured yes :P
But i have decided against drowning my sorrow righ after iftaar at sunset at not being in teh first list, plus drowining my sorrow right after iftaar would kinda defeat the purpose of fasting anyways.

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yo clear teh crap, dunn break the pipe in the process G, :)

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Nadia exchanged pet pictures with Ohioguy? Let me go check with our survelliance team..seems like we might need to keep her phones tapped if she’s been approached by the spooks :bailan:

33

**

lolz :rotfl: i knew i was going to get into trouble with someone for that;~)

Waisay i have to say, OG has some of the cutest dogs, they’re absolutely adorable, no doubt about it… made me remember my two stray cats i had years back. One was all-white, the other was a tabby. man do i miss them.

Maybe if we all share pics of our pets, we could come to a closer level of appreciation for each other’s perspectives - or at least arrive at a point where we don’t insult the other for their personal beliefs… hmm anyways, back to reality.

MyVoice, i am sure some of what you state does have merit. Pragmatically speaking, i am certain you realize that you cannot (or should not) expect that a government whose policies affect so many billions of people around the world, will not be debated vigorously on a political forum. :flower1: We all believe we each have ‘merit’ in our beliefs, otherwise why would we hang onto them.

i knew an American professor of mine, from Colorado, who got a teaching position at my Canadian university. He happened to be extremely proud that he was from the US; simultaneously he was also extremely open-minded and when we discussed politics, he approached every issue with humility and honesty. Please realize that when you read criticims of your government’s policies, it stems (i believe) from a frustration that you cannot begin to comprehend - frustration at what we perceive to be the effects of armchair general policies upon civilians. Yes we all come with our own biases, i have mine and i try to be (somewhat, not always) conscious of my biases when i post. i am sure everyone realizes that the level of ‘anti-US’ debates in the WA Forum is natural given that we are discussing the most powerful country in the world whose policies affect the day-to-day lives of ordinary civilians in almost every nook and cranny of the world. It wouldn’t be a political forum if we weren’t discussing the politics of a government that happens to have massive influence into many diverse regions. It is not indicative of ‘anti-Americanism’, i hope we all realize this. As Jagga pointed out earlier, there are several American Guppies here who do believe in the validity of these political beliefs.

sigh Let’s just all try even harder to understand where we are all coming from. If we can’t even argue with respect on a political forum, then that’s rather sad isn’t it and perhaps something in everyone’s behaviour needs to be modified.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Well Fraudz, if is rusty, it is more cost effective to replace it. Better in the long run.
[/QUOTE]

I will remember that when u are old(er) :)

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Fraudia, nice response. MV has been MIA since.

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What does manipesto mean? :blush: Is it something to do with Italian food sorta like antipesto? In which case shouldn’t this thread be moved to the home economics forum?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Look at kids like CM for example, hasn’t finished school yet, but is expert on the US, these guys and gals after seeing their first pubic hair think they know it all. Just don’t take these lowperformers so seriously. Just remember the words of Joe Kowalski (my plumber) “if the drain is clogged, there must be some crap stuck in the pipe”. Crap is stuck in Islami pipe, and US is cleaning it.
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Aww...honeybunch i didnt know you cared so much. Everytime i am an example for what you feel is wrong, I am truly honoured.

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I dont think he is MIA due to my response. I think on a human level we all ask and expect the same things from one another, respect, understanding, benefit of the doubt.

when there is an issue or imbalance in willingness to extend it but the teh focus is on the struggle to obtain it then it becomes a problem. You will see many problems in the world are due to this imbalance at the problem's core. I think majority of the ppl on this boars would get along perfectly fine if they met. net communication has its drawbacks, writtenw ords have their limitations, smilies dont fill in for non verbal cues.

building understanding and building bridges is important, fully knowing that there are ppl who will be trying to steal your cement to make bricks they can throw at the other side while you are building teh bridge, but its worth it.

remember the tension between russians and americans..not teh govt, the people...and see how it started going away because ppl were able to meet, understand and communicate? the fall of soviet union had a role in it, but russia under gorby was very diff from russia under brezzie.

anyways i am rambling..but i serously doubt that MV is hiding from my points, as they are just the same points as his albeit from a muslim in general and american muslim pespective specifically.

39

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

I will remember that when u are old(er) :)
[/QUOTE]

How old do you want him to be. He is already like 80 years old. He only made that comment becasue he has been through the experience u know :). He just told us that his plumber told him that his drain was clogged, they had to replace ...it is better for him in the long run.

40

yaaar kaleem please no bay-izzzati of my buzurg madhnee bhai sahab. realize that elders are older and wiser. madhanee thus is an elder and indeed older. But age-ism is such a no-no.

watchout though, rumour has it that he has one of those ninja walkign sticks that are hiding a sword inside.