Manifesto of an American Guppy

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

If you want to change American policy …

You must try to communicate with the American people. After two years on GS, it occurs to me that this is a new concept to some of you. Here are a few ideas:

  1. Shed as many tears for Muslims who are killed by other Muslims as you profess to do when Muslims die at the hands of an American soldier.
  2. Recognize and express that there is a substantive moral difference between an Iraqi child killed by an American weapon during a firefight and the beheading of Daniel Pearl.
  3. Stop posting smilies every time an American soldier dies.
  4. If and when you condemn a Muslim terrorist for killing some innocent civilian, don’t follow up your condemnation with “But …. “
  5. When Americans spend their money and risk American lives to stop the genocide of Muslims somewhere in the world, a simple “Thanks” will go a long way with us.
  6. Don’t compare our President (Democrat or Republican) with Hitler.
  7. Realize that the wealth Americans have has been earned and not given to us.
  8. Stop demanding that we use our money to fix every problem in the world as if it was your money.
  9. Stop telling us to mind our own business in one part of the world and then demand that we do more to stop genocides, famine or disease in Africa, Asia and/or other parts of the world.
  10. Recognize that OBL presents a bigger threat to the lives of Americans than Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell presents to the lives of Muslims.
  11. Recognize that the majority of Muslims living in any secular western democracy have a better life and existence than the majority of Muslims living in any Muslim majority country anywhere in the world.
  12. Recognize that Americans are not to blame for Item 11 above.
  13. Recognize that the vast majority of Americans could care less whether you worship, Buddha, Allah, God, Christ, or a tree. It was huge news to us that there was a “War on Islam”. As a nation founded on religious freedom, as refugees from religious persecution, this is an anathema to us. The more I hear about this, the more I wonder if Islam is, in fact, at war with us rather than vice versa.
  14. Realize that I am not responsible for the failings of my forefathers, any more than you are.
  15. Americans are neither smart enough nor powerful enough to be responsible for every conspiracy, nor every tyrant that the Muslim world blames us for. Acknowledge once in a while that, at some point, Muslims must look inward to find improvements in their lives.
  16. Understand that representative democracies are never perfect at any instant in time. While we are open to criticism that we may be wrong for some period, credit us with the fact that, in general, our direction and our goals are noble.
  17. Recognize that the hate and anger we see emanating from the radical fringes of Islam directed at Americans disturbs us.
  18. Recognize that Americans who come to places like Gupshup are desperately trying to find examples that will make us comfortable believing that the hate and anger emanating from the radical fringes of Islam represent only the radical fringes and not the majority of all Muslims.
  19. Recognize that silence from a moderate element of Muslims in the face of postings expressing hate and anger by other Muslims leads us to believe that the radical fringes of Islam might actually not be so much at the fringes.

Frankly, if Fox, CNN, CBS, MSNBC or any other newscast devoted 1 minute per day on each newscast to reading some “representative” samplings of postings on Gupshup, not only would GWB get re-elected in a landslide, but there would be a groundswell of support for tightening immigration laws, student visas, etc. in ways you can hardly imagine. Instead of worrying about transferring power and authority back to the Iraqi people, we’d be voting who to take power and authority away from next. Your paranoia about Syria and Iran would no longer be mere paranoia.

One of the most troubling things about my GS experience is that I sense that the hate and anger displayed herein comes from an awful lot of Guppies who lapped up the benefits associated with education and employment offered in the US and other western democracies and thereby escaped the poverty, despair, repression, etc. offered in the lands of their birth. Typically, these people should be the best and the brightest who have the greatest capacity to lead, persuade and educate others. I am not comforted with this thought.

** To the many thoughtful moderates posting in GS: ** Thank you for your efforts to communicate and actually share your hopes, fears, ideals, and philosophies with this American. We are not so different, you and I. I wish there were more of you and that I was convinced that you are truly representative of the majority of my brothers and sisters in Islam.

2

MV,

Extremely well put, and very much on point. Let us see what the response is.......

3

You forgot to add one point…

Never blame Americans for anything that happens in the world no matter how much they are at fault and no matter how bad, don’t criticise us…Just agree with us…

[Edited]

Man I hate that edited by blah blah at the bottom…:mad:
||
vv

4

MV, why do you hate us? Is it for the reasons you mentioned.

5

MV,

Obviously a lot of effort has gone into this post of yours. Thank you.

I can respond point-by-point to the issues you have raised, and I may when I have a bit of time on my hands, at this point, I'll just make a general comment.

US is a land of immigrants. Its only a difference in time line. Your ancestors may have arrived in this land seven generations ago, compared to your next door Indian neighbor who is a second generation American. That does not afford you any more or less rights. If we go by ancestory, Indian tribes are probably the noblest of them all. That is not to say that the great strides made in the last two hundred years by America, Americans and the whole US society is any small feat. How much of that would be possible had the founding fathers closed the doors of immigration in 1787 is something which is not even worth debating. So, lets get off that high horse. US is what it is today because of immigrants.

Criticizing some aspects of US policies, mainly foreign policies, is a natural by-product of being the lone super-power in the world. Almost all countries of the world have defects in their policies, some honest ones and some due to hidden desires. US takes the brunt of that criticism because with immense power comes immense responsibilities. US is no longer the isolationist nation of pre-WWII era, and with the praise will come the redicule. You have to take it, analyze it, agree or disagree and reach your own conclusions.

If GS brings a few of us together in terms of thoughts and our perception on issues, great. If it brings more discord and animosity, too bad.

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
You forgot to add one point...

Never blame Americans for anything that happens in the world no matter how much they are at fault and no matter how bad, don't criticise us...Just agree with us...

[/QUOTE]

No. Sorry. That's covered under item 16 above.

** 16. Understand that representative democracies are never perfect at any instant in time. While we are open to criticism that we may be wrong for some period, credit us with the fact that, in general, our direction and our goals are noble. **

Part of communication is actually reading what someone says before responding.

7

Lussi,

You missed the point entirely. MV, if I may speak for him, came here to learn about the views of Muslims, as I did. For nearly two years a number of us have come here to listen, learn, and debate.

The Americans who come to Gupshup are here to meet you on your ground, they do not hate you, they wish to engage you.

8

Re: Manifesto of an American Guppy

*Originally posted by myvoice: *
If you want to change American policy …

You must try to communicate with the American people. After two years on GS, it occurs to me that this is a new concept to some of you. Here are a few ideas:

  1. Shed as many tears for Muslims who are killed by other Muslims as you profess to do when Muslims die at the hands of an American soldier. No on supported Iraq invading Kuwait in here I'm sure, how many other Muslim countries invaded and occupied other countries in the last few years?
  2. Recognize and express that there is a substantive moral difference between an Iraqi child killed by an American weapon during a firefight and the beheading of Daniel Pearl. The Iraqi child lives in Iraq
  3. Stop posting smilies every time an American soldier dies. shock and awe baby yeah, you Americans coined that fagotty phrase for what amounted to genocide not just smileys your TV station staff were beaming from ear to ear
  4. If and when you condemn a Muslim terrorist for killing some innocent civilian, don’t follow up your condemnation with “But …. “ there's always a reason for everything nothing is black and white
  5. When Americans spend their money and risk American lives to stop the genocide of Muslims somewhere in the world, a simple “Thanks” will go a long way with us. Is this why America meddles, for some praise, well it's an expensive way of getting gratitude, try a bake sale for Mongolian orpahns
  6. Don’t compare our President (Democrat or Republican) with Hitler. Okay so Hitler was shorter
  7. Realize that the wealth Americans have has been earned and not given to us. By breaking the back of the developing world economies
  8. Stop demanding that we use our money to fix every problem in the world as if it was your money. Fix your view of the world, this costs nothing
  9. Stop telling us to mind our own business in one part of the world and then demand that we do more to stop genocides, famine or disease in Africa, Asia and/or other parts of the world. Most demand you don't meddle either way, the more democratic EU/UN can fill any void left by an insular US
  10. Recognize that OBL presents a bigger threat to the lives of Americans than Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell presents to the lives of Muslims. Who are these people you speak of? A brothers grim set of characters?
  11. Recognize that the majority of Muslims living in any secular western democracy have a better life and existence than the majority of Muslims living in any Muslim majority country anywhere in the world. Better life? on what level of thinking
  12. Recognize that Americans are not to blame for Item 11 above. burp
  13. Recognize that the vast majority of Americans could care less whether you worship, Buddha, Allah, God, Christ, or a tree. It was huge news to us that there was a "War on Islam". As a nation founded on religious freedom, as refugees from religious persecution, this is an anathema to us. The more I hear about this, the more I wonder if Islam is, in fact, at war with us rather than vice versa.
    You can have any monotheistic religion as long as it's Judeo-Christian
  14. Realize that I am not responsible for the failings of my forefathers, any more than you are. ** It's what you justify today that matters and in what way your views are tinted**
  15. Americans are neither smart enough nor powerful enough to be responsible for every conspiracy, nor every tyrant that the Muslim world blames us for. Acknowledge once in a while that, at some point, Muslims must look inward to find improvements in their lives. Americans must look inward period.
  16. Understand that representative democracies are never perfect at any instant in time. While we are open to criticism that we may be wrong for some period, credit us with the fact that, in general, our direction and our goals are noble. The US has no democracy, the 2000 election was a farce
  17. Recognize that the hate and anger we see emanating from the radical fringes of Islam directed at Americans disturbs us.
    You create it then you fear it, no one elses problem until you make it
  18. Recognize that Americans who come to places like Gupshup are desperately trying to find examples that will make us comfortable believing that the hate and anger emanating from the radical fringes of Islam represent only the radical fringes and not the majority of all Muslims. Yes by poking people with a stick you'll really get to know them
  19. Recognize that silence from a moderate element of Muslims in the face of postings expressing hate and anger by other Muslims leads us to believe that the radical fringes of Islam might actually not be so much at the fringes. No one should be forced to agree with anything you believe, you'd do well to bear that in mind not just in gupshup but in everyday life

All in all, you do get rather serious about all this don't you. You're not a poltical missionary, so ease up and enjoy something different in your otherwise bland agreeable lifestyle

9

Then I’ll just add point from the Muslim perspective…

We don’t hate Americans, never did, never will…But as part of our heritage of standing against oppression, it may come out looking that way…

And I don’t have to read everything you wrote MV…The American media is saying the exact same thing and drumming it into the psyches of everyone it can reach since god knows when…

BTW, here’s what I think of Americans…

10

I just love that line. You don’t need to read what I write because the American media is saying the exact same thing ??? :eek:

If you don’t read what I write then how can you know whether the American media is saying the “exact same thing???”

That’s part of the problem. You assume you know what I’m thinking and what I must be writing because …

[choose one]

  1. You are Karnak the magnificent.
  2. You are related to Nostradamos.
  3. You have a closed mind and have categorized me, my thoughts, and my ideas based upon the only thing you know about me: i.e. I am an American.
11

I read every itty bitty word Myvoice.

I could have written it for you, you're an open book and no need for manifesto's how melodramatic.

Myadvice for Myvoice: Try and explore other forums and add to them and don't limit yourself to self defense in WA.

This is not the place to just push your personal political view of the world we have a cooking corner too, swap some recipes go visit travel and tell us about your last vacation etc.

Chill dude.

12

and what makes you think you are the only american guppy on this board? there are other "american" guppies here with origins from pakistan, naturalized american citizens who may not agree with everything you had to say. just being a caucasian white american on GS doesnt mean you guys are the only and true representatives of "americans" on this board.
america is a melting pot and what makes this country great is there are all sorts of ethnicities here and they all express their views and dont have to always fall in line with what some right-wing folks think.

13

"I just love that line. You don't need to read what I write because the American media is saying the exact same thing ?????? "

The US media? They are going easy on you guys.

I am in absolute agreement with MyVoice that if half of what was posted in GS ever made it to Fox or CNN then there WOULD be a war on Islam. The media has been struggling to educate Americans about Islam, and in most regards has operated with admirable restraint.

14

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by JaGGa: *
and what makes you think you are the only american guppy on this board? there are other "american" guppies here with origins from pakistan, naturalized american citizens who may not agree with everything you had to say. just being a caucasian white american on GS doesnt mean you guys are the only and true representatives of "americans" on this board.
america is a melting pot and what makes this country great is there are all sorts of ethnicities here and they all express their views and dont have to always fall in line with what some right-wing folks think.
[/QUOTE]

I never said I was the only American Guppy on the board. Some Americans, whether naturalized or not, may not agree with my opinions. They're free to agree or disagree.

Something I think you miss is the fact that guys and/or gals like OG, UTD, Seminole, Stu and myself are probably the most open-minded Americans you will find who are willing to listen to civilized dialogue and argument and to consider a different viewpoint. As OG said:

** "You missed the point entirely. MV, if I may speak for him, came here to learn about the views of Muslims, as I did. For nearly two years a number of us have come here to listen, learn, and debate.

The Americans who come to Gupshup are here to meet you on your ground, they do not hate you, they wish to engage you. **

GS is much the worse if people like us end up leaving here with the impression "to hell with them" and/or that "the clash of civilizations is inevitable so that we might as well get it over with now."

We took the step to try to communicate with you, not vice-versa. Most people in western democracies, Americans included, wouldn't bother to make the effort. They'd rather sit on the couch and watch Friends.

Now, you can sit back and bury your head in the sand when some of us share with you our perception of our experience here and just attribute it to bigoted, white Americans. Or, you might try a little introspection and honestly evaluate whether anything we say has merit. Your choice.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Now, you can sit back and bury your head in the sand when some of us share with you our perception of our experience here and just attribute it to bigoted, white Americans. Or, you might try a little introspection and honestly evaluate whether anything we say has merit. Your choice.
[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, how much of what you have read here, made you try a little introspection and honestly evaluate whether anything thats said here has merit?

Obviously, its not a one-way street, right? :-)

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chota: *

you're (myvoice) an open book and no need for manifesto's how melodramatic.

Myadvice for Myvoice: Try and explore other forums and add to them and don't limit yourself to self defense in WA.

This is not the place to just push your personal political view of the world we have a cooking corner too, swap some recipes go visit travel and tell us about your last vacation etc.

Chill dude.
[/QUOTE]

Chota you say myvoice is an open book while I have no doubt that you my friend are a closed one. Chota the fact is you aren’t any better than those Americans “who coined that fagotty phrase Shock and Awe”, very telling that you use this as an excuse to mock the American dead.

The WA forum, from my understanding is to discuss world events. I once (tongue in cheek) suggest it be renamed The American Forum since America dominates the discussion there as I believe America is held to a higher standard as it should be, compared to the rest of the world. As of late the forum had become more of a child's playground slinging mud back and forth in which both sides were guilty of doing, but this becomes a tiresome exercise. Secondary to that is the Mods over in WA seem to be incompetent as they habitually only delete posts that are anti anti-American. Rather than incompetence though I believe this to be actually an issue of biasness, but that's a whole other matter.

So what's there to do? Do people want to have adult discussions where ideas are shared and viewpoints explained or would you rather have it continue to be a place where people go to celebrate when others are killed (I to am too guilty of this, I was happy to hear that Saddam's kids were killed and posted this fact, my bad), insult elected leaders, and in general act like 10 year olds? What's it going to be, I'm willing to make an effort if others are.

"Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute."
-Josh Billings

17

Sent you a PM in response to your post, for your eyes only. smile

18

[quote]

Chota the fact is you aren’t any better than those Americans “who coined that fagotty phrase Shock and Awe”, very telling that you use this as an excuse to mock the American dead.

[/quote]

UTD it sounds like you are talking at him rather than talking to him. Look at what he was trying to say. As Ohio guy has said:

[quote]

MV, if I may speak for him, came here to learn about the views of Muslims, as I did. For nearly two years a number of us have come here to listen, learn, and debate.

[/quote]

Now the debate part you guys do pretty well, but the listening and understadning is not all done in the WA forum. Perhaps you guys can go over to images, look the pictures of young children and maybe put in a comment or two about wishing them well or complementing them, maybe you can read the culture forum and perhaps give us the benefit of your experience and your views. That is the way to understand and listen to others. By letting us know that our kids are beautiful or that the bridal dresses over in the fashion images look like whatever they look like to you, you will get to know us and convey to us that you are here to listen and understand and not just to wag your fingers at us. World politics is only one dimension of who we are. There are other fora here that reflect our thinking as a whole so take part in them as well, maybe then we can have an effective dialogue rather than talking at one another.

Best Wishes

19

In order to have effective communication, u need to be open about different views, ideas and respect it. something lot of ppl here need to learn. n like muffakar said, there are other forums here as well.. perhaps if u participate in them u might actually see or learn something different :-)

20

Mufakkar,

I can tell you more than you need to know about images of Mad Scientists feet. I have exchanged pictures of my pets with Nadia, and given Sadi advice on her ageing overweight cat. I have read the Surah each day. We have all had brief lessons in Urdu, as well as the history of the languages, and similarities to neighboring languages.

What have you done lately?

I can assure you that every American here has suffered insults and profanity, even if quickly removed. We are guests in your virtual house, and from time to time we have been treated embarrassingly badly.

Look at the counts of the posts each one of us has. (Look at my still pathetic scores in games).

Perhaps you are underestimating our effort.