[quote=“skhan”]
Christianity may have needed evolution, Islam doesn’t. Please quote some examples of how we need evolving?
Isalmic community has already evolved in many ways
Slavery no longer is considered legal
Early days of Islam restricted administration to Arabs and those who were early entrants into the religion, that has changed (concept of Mowlid)
Concept of taking women and children as slaves in war, no longer acceptable
Concept of keeping concubine’s, no longer acceptable
Concept of using still imagery was considered haram, no longer the case
Political administration, economic concepts and military strategies
Status of minorities has evolved.
I can go on and on as to how the Islamic community has evolved, where it has not been able to change is the male dominated biases against women and that needs urgent reform.
^ All the points you mentioned, are from which point of view? Still imagery is still haram according to hadith. Concubines were never allowed, instead polygamy was introduced. Minority abuse was never encouraged by the prophet (pbuh). Islam originated in Arabia, so ofcourse in the early days the administration would consist mainly of Arabs. Later with expansion, administration also diversified.
I can also go on and on but that is not the issue here. The issue is supposed male dominance. What needs urgent reform? What biases are you specifically referring to?
Imagery is haram according to Hadith, yet is now acceptable by religious edict, isnt that a form of evolution? Loudspeaker was considered haram, then it was decided that it is acceptable and God do we know how much has it been misused. But then again this is a part of evolution. As for concubines, you are wrong they were allowed when it came to female slaves, polygamy was a practice being followed and was given approval by the Quran for various reasons, but with a caveat attached which people do not remember. I never said there was minority abuse, my reference was to the concept of Jizya, no longer practiced is it? Evolution. Friend you are not knowledgable in Islamic history otherwise you would know of the Mowlid. It is a historical fact that early governments did discriminate between Arab-Arabs(new muslims) and Arab-NonArabs. Yes you are correct, that as the Islamic empire grew and society became diversified, things had to change. Exactly my point. Evolution.
As for your question on women rights:
Women cannot be head of states
Women are untouchable during their periods
Because they have periods they are of lesser kind
Simply cannot lead prayers, even for women
Cannot be considered equal in terms of witness
Have to be locked up in their houses and protected (against the bad, ugly wolf called man)
Have no business working outside
Do you need more??? Comeon bro, we certainly have problems lets be the first to ackowledge them, that way solutions are always easier to understand and enforce.
Because they have periods they are of lesser kind Who says that makes women any less??? if anything it makes a woman superior to a man as she has been chosen to give birth to a new life...a miracle in itself really.
Simply cannot lead prayers, even for women Women can lead prayers for women.
Have to be locked up in their houses and protected (against the bad, ugly wolf called man) Women have been given certain rights by Islam....which no other religion gives....Islam never says that lock ur wife/sis/mother up.
Have no business working outside
Women are allowed to work outside...infact during Iddat (a period after death of husband or after divorce) which is considered to be the only time when a woman is restricted from going out....even in that time if a woman needs to provide for herself or her family...she is allowed to go out
What we dont understand is that men and women ARE different
WOMEN = W atch Out Men ;)...
Jokes aside....They are different in everyway, physically emotionally, perception-wise, strength-wise. So why cant there be different set of rules for them????
There always will be things that men cant do and there will be things that women can not do....whats different will always be different.
What makes one superior or inferior are their deeds....the way they live their lives and not bcoz of the gender they belong to. :)
1. Women cannot be head of states
2. Women are untouchable during their periods
3. Because they have periods they are of lesser kind
4. Simply cannot lead prayers, even for women
5. Cannot be considered equal in terms of witness
6. Have to be locked up in their houses and protected (against the bad, ugly wolf called man)
7. Have no business working outside
Islam doesn't need evolution. Muslim males need to grow up and let go of their pacifiers - that I do agree with.
Point 1: The hadith that talks about women not being able to lead - there is a lot of criticism against it and many scholars consider it weak (even if bukhari and muslim decided to pass it as sahih).
Point 2: Untrue - the Prophet had sexual interaction with Aisha when she had her periods.
Point 3: Untrue - nowhere does it say we are limited because we have menstrual cycles - this is simply the error of muslim men who can't let go of their patriarchial cultures (in our case, rooted in hinduism).
Point 4: This is what I've been arguing against. One hadith shows at least that a woman is allowed to lead prayer inside her home even with men behind her, but of course the chauvinists will call that one weak. However, whether she's allowed to do it in a mosque, I'm not sure, but at least there is no prohibitive ayah or hadith against it. That tells me it probably is allowed, but the vast majority of people dont want to accept it - here you'll see evolution of muslims in time, but the religion already encompasses the concept of it. Just needs time for generations of muslims to learn to think of their women as equals rather than as inferiors. Give it like 2-3 more generations.
Point 5: I read an interpretation of this ayah as no longer needing to be held true - only to be held in a situation where women are not intellectually equal to men in terms of their education. In today's society, women are just as educated. Some scholar had argued this point in this way, but of course 99% of males will disagree.
Point 6: Untrue - no where does it say this in Islam
Point 7: Untrue - Khadija was a businesswoman and the Prophet was her employee.
[quote=“PyariCgudia”] 1. Women cannot be head of states 2. Women are untouchable during their periods 3. Because they have periods they are of lesser kind 4. Simply cannot lead prayers, even for women 5. Cannot be considered equal in terms of witness 6. Have to be locked up in their houses and protected (against the bad, ugly wolf called man) 7. Have no business working outside
Purpose of listing these distatsteful points was to highlight the plight of muslim women endured by this kind of prejuidices formented by religious clergy.
There is a Hadith to support this opinion, is it true? I have my doubts
Read Bahishti Zeevar by ashraf Thanvi and find out for yourself what this gentleman and many like him propagate. If a man is going to perform Salat and touches a women having periods, he has to perform wazoo again.
Same as number 2, read Bahishtee Zeevar. Since women cannot offer prayers while having periods, they are not equal to men. Not my saying or opinion, but that of Ashraf Thanwi
Segments of Muslim Fikah hold this opinion, while certainly some disagree
This applied to financial matters only, but has since been extended to all other matters. Having said that, it doesnt make sense why Hazrat Aisha’s contribution to Hadith literature is taken as sufficient.
Many Islamic scholars are of the opinion that women are better off at home. Some even go to the extent of declaring women guilty of zina if they step outside or their voices are heard by strangers.
Has anybody been to Saudi Arabia? Just see how many women are allowed to work, period. Same as the nutty Talibans.
I repeat, purpose of highlighting these absolutely dispicable sentiments is to demonstrate the prejuidices built against women and given religious sanctity. When many of the past practices as mentioned above (slavery etc) can become things of the past through evolution why not emancipation of women in the Islamic world?
What you are talking about is theories of scholars (such that you mentioned) and the PRACTICE of muslims. This is dramatically different from what the Quran mentions, and let me be honest, even what MOST of the hadith mention (although I still argue that some of them are unjustifiably still included in the collection as sahih hadith when they are clearly contradictory to the Quran and the spirit of Islam).
Make sure to delineate between practice and real Islamic theory.
If some scholar writes a commentary on some aspect of the Quran or sunnah, that doesn't make it real Islamic theory. Otherwise everyone here, including me, would be a scholar, and man would that be disasterous for mankind.
You start off by saying that the Islam we have practising since the last 1400 years is wrong because sahih hadith contradict Quran. All those scholars must have really screwed up somewhere.
THEN you say everyone, including you, isn’t a scholar and that’s a good thing.
Islam isn’t based solely on the Quran. That’s not Islam. How do you pray? Why do you pray different number of rakah for different times of the day? Those came from the very hadith you think contradict the Quran. I said it before and I’ll say it again, you can pick and choose according to your whims, that’s fine. Just don’t mislead others into thinking that’s Islam.
Heyyy heyyy heyyyy ... you guys have got it all wrong. I am not here to discuss if or why women should lead namaz.
All I am saying is that a century of so from now, there will be skhan jr. here arguing that women leading namaz is not against the fundamentals of Islam or why abolishing capital punishment is justified on religious grounds or that the first secular state was what the Holy Prophet (saw) established.
There were no mass movements against slavery in Muslim countries, no million men marches in the Kingdom of Saud .. no civil disobediences but we moved on and then made ourselves feel good in the fact that Islam never encouraged slavery in the first place.
So, argue all you want on the ‘contemporary’ issues .. the fact remains, when the world moves on, it’s hard to stay back, no matter how hard we try.
Wanna bet that fixed-rate interest loans are going to be Islamically justified within a decade?
Ahmadjee, what is wrong is wrong. It's wrong now, and will be wrong later no matter what justifications are present.
You mention fixed rate interest loans, well I have met scholars who have already justified it. Even alcohol, some go as far as to say it's not haram. Their line of thinking isn't forbidden outrightly in the Quran, so as long as one drinks in moderation and isn't under a "nasha" there is nothing wrong with it.
When there is a will, there is always a way. People will do whatever is in their power to change things in accordance to their biases and prejudices. But that acceptance or change doesn't necessarily mean it's right.
There is no mention of alcohol (shiraab) in Quran, the word used is khimer, meaning intoxication. More importantly, it is not something which carries a Hud or punishment as in adultery (zina). Therefore, things which assume populist opnions may in fact be more traditional than religious. Same goes for Riba as explained by the Quran and modern day interest rate theory. Riba as described by Quran deals with the exploitation of resources, while modern day interest rate management basically distributes capital and offers risk adjusted normalized returns which are not at all exploitive compared to Riba discussed in Quran.
Reinterpertation of archaic ideas withoutviolating the basic principles of Islam has always been practiced, and was probably extremly difficult to understand a the time of change, but we muslims have done it. Why not in the case of male dominated religions? Cause it hurts our sensibilities? Challenges our insecure traditional values? We are afraid of the unknown? we dont like change?
may be quran meant loan sharking not home mortgage which made people
own houses and buy cars also grameen bank which provides loans to poor
people to start buiness.
How do you seperate theory and practice when both are supposedly based on authentic sources i.e., Quranic interpertations or Hadiths. Mind you, theories which may not agree with our taste and intellect are considered by its adherents to be based on well researched, documented historical evidence. Thus, thet become a part of religious beliefs.
Iam not sure what you mean by delineating between practice and real Islamic theory. Who is to judge what is real and what is not? And practice originates from theory, so you cannot separate the two…
In the days of the prophet. when loans were extended on Riba (Usuary) it would carry exorbitant rates in todays language. Let me explain. there was no paper money in those days. Everything was done on barter. Therefore, if someone was in need they would go and ask the lenders for a loan i.e., goods, sheep, ornaments or gold and silver. Take example of wheat (atta). If the borrower took 10bags of wheat, then the lender would assess his return in the form of maybe 5bags more in return. Now, if that borrower was unable to comply, then according to the customes of those times, the borrower would lose all rights in the tribe, his property whatever was expropriated by the lender. In extreme cases and very commonly, the borrower and his/her family would have to be “Enslaved” by the lender. Thus the hatred expressed in Quran for riba. Can the banker of today charge unscruplously exorbitant rates which would be considered exploitive? I have not seen anything of that sort. Actually, interest rates are so low (3%-6%) that businesses are thriving in developed and developing countries.
Apologies to all for going off the tangent, but goes to show we need to rethink and reform…
of course you can separate the two. its like GS rules - they are clear and written out as they are - but people either bypass them or make-up their own rules and say "Well this is permitted on GS - its freedom of speech - sure I can post up porn here in Images 3 - why not? Its against the spirit of GS for you to censor me..."
