I’m glad he’s detained.
he was jumping a bit too high for the past few weeks. and ever since he was made president of ARD he was issuing foolish statements every day. Idiot. He said last week that when PML(N) came to power next time with Nawaz Sharif, the govt would try all present generals including gen Pervez Musharraf for treason. i feel like puking over his face!
these makhdooms, chowdarys, nawabs etc can do whatever they want to pakisatn and loot as much as they can but that’s not treason is it!? you wear a uniform all your life, spend your entire life serving the country as its loyal soldiers ready to die and sacrifice everything for it and when you save it from a threat you are called a traitor and the real patriotic people want to try you for treason.
i salute our military and their patience against these idiots. Gen Musharraf is indeed a very strong yet lenient man for having left these actual traitors free.
Be careful of what you wish for. Today it is Mr. Hashmi, Tomorrow it could be someone close to you. Army and armymen look good in Barracks not in Senate or Parliament whatever you call it.
A long overdue move.
What have these politicians done over the last year, apart from thumping their desks, waving their papers and living it up in Islamabad? For that they have asked for massive pay rises as well! If they want to further parliamentary democracy in Pakistan then they start acting like parliamentarians and legislate for the good of the people - lead by example as such.
If they want to incite, promote division, anarchy and instability then they should be thrown in prison.
Let the courts work freely in Pakistan and then we will see how many makhdooms and musharrafs get tried for treason.
Very unfortunate, especially if he has been charged with treason, this considering the illegality of this Army led govt, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
some perceptions have to be corrected on the slaary issue, the average salary of an MNA is 5,000 rs/month. The increase was suggessted by the present Mush/Jamali go0vernment MNA's and was supported by Shaukat Aziz.
In the end, all of this is the consequence of the Army getting involved in politics. Faujis should be defending the borders and not running cleaning canals or checking electricity meters, once they get involved in politics they are fair game for criticism.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
In the end, all of this is the consequence of the Army getting involved in politics. Faujis should be defending the borders and not running cleaning canals or checking electricity meters, once they get involved in politics they are fair game for criticism.
[/QUOTE]
It has been said a zillionth time before but army lovers seem not to grasp this simple point. They always come up with their old silly arguements without understanding the true soul of democracy.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
In the end, all of this is the consequence of the Army getting involved in politics.
[/QUOTE]
Please stop defending the hypocrisy of politicians in Pakistan. Is it not a fact that almost all the parties except the PML (N) welcomed the military coup of 1999? Yes or No? Where was supremacy of the Pakistani constitution, and condemnations of the army interfering in politics then?
Also, while you are busy defending inciteful politicians, please list the legislative achievments of the politicians in parliament over the last year?
Slapping a charge of treason is a serious charge Malik, people get executed for that, I am not arguing on moral grounds of who is good or who is bad I am arguing on legal grounds, as long as their acts are not indemnified Musharraf and co have committed treason. Slapping treason charges on anyone is in bad taste, in the spirit of what goes around comes around, I can't see how the government can justify the arrest IF it it on a treason charge.
Secondly, yes the government has failed in it's responsibility to pass legislation, it is the responsibility of the Jamali government, which is in power to initiate legislation...their failure to pass any legislation is the fault of their minders..sitting in GHQ.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I am not arguing on moral grounds of who is good or who is bad I am arguing on legal grounds...
[/QUOTE]
I asked you a question about your claims about the military involvement in politics, and you dodged it, so I will ask it again. Is it not a fact that almost all the parties except the PML (N) welcomed the military coup of 1999? Yes or No? Where was supremacy of the Pakistani constitution, and condemnations of the army interfering in politics then?
Secondly is it not the job of all parliamentarians, be they government or the opposition to take part in the legislative process, rather than take orders from exiled leaders in Dubai or Jeddah? Now please list the legislative achievments and actions of all the parties in parliament, so then we can judge if our politcians have set a good example of what a legislator is? No dodges please.
^ You seem to be confusing legal with political, an illegal act is an illegal act..unless it is indemnified (which is a bizzare Pakistani concept but a neccessary one considering repeated Military interventions). no independant constitutional lawyer will ever call the charge of treason slapped on a politician as anything other than a sad joke.
Secondly, even when the opposition has attended the National Assembly, there has been no quorom, translation, the government can't even ensure it's own legislators attendance. That responsibility is again the government in power's.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Zakk:
^ You seem to be confusing legal with political...
[/quote]
No for the third time you are dodging the question I have posed to you in relation to your original claim about the military involvement in politics. So here goes a third time. Is it not a fact that almost all the parties except the PML (N) welcomed the military coup of 1999? Yes or No? Where was supremacy of the Pakistani constitution, and condemnations of the army interfering in politics then? If you don't have an answer for this question, or are finding it difficult to answer just say so.
Secondly, I asked you about the contribution of all the political parties in parliament to the legislative process in the last year, and you have also again dodged this question. Let's see a list of the contributions that the political parties have made in parliament since October 2002?Again, if you don't have an answer for this question, or are finding it difficult to answer, just say so.
Now these bunch of mentally retarded politicians are submitting a motion to speaker of national assembly about the arrest of Javed Hashmi on the basis that “Hashmi can’t be arrested during the days when parliament is under session”. What the hell was Hashmi doing in parliament anyway? He did not take part in the proceedings even for a minute for past whole year. All he does in parliament is walk-out. Getting paid regularly but doing 0 work. Sick.
He is at right place now from where he cant "walk-out" :)
^ I don't think any Parliament would rule other wise, most MP's tend to be produced in Parliament. Till the speaker rules he is disqualified or the Election Commission does.
Where was supremacy of the Pakistani constitution, and condemnations of the army interfering in politics then?
Again I repeat, the difference between moral, political and * legal *
Legally the Generals committed treason, Morally they may have been justified in taking over, but legally they have no such excuse. And poisoning the atmosphere by arresting people on treason smacks of hypocricy.
Secondly, I asked you about the contribution of all the political parties in parliament to the legislative process in the last year, and you have also again dodged this question. Let's see a list of the contributions that the political parties have made in parliament since October 2002?
Cart before the horse logic, you need a quorom before you can pass legislation, no quorom no legislation. The quorom is a responsibility of the Government in power, how do you pass legislation without one?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Cart before the horse logic, you need a quorom before you can pass legislation, no quorom no legislation. The quorom is a responsibility of the Government in power, how do you pass legislation without one?
[/QUOTE]
And this shows the ugly face of Pakistani politicians. They are getting all pay and allowance for not sitting in the parliament. Just because “quorum is a responsibility of the Government”, they always try to break the quorum rather than doing something useful in Parliament. This tells how sincere they are with Pakistan.
As far as “legal” and “moral” aspect of this situation is concerned this is quite simple
“If you don’t accept Musharraf and LFO, everything he did (and ordered including) elections has to be rolled back” There will be no parliament, no members of the parliament and no “istehqaq”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Morally they may have been justified in taking over, but legally they have no such excuse.
[/QUOTE]
Slowly we're getting there. So you are admitting that those champions of "democracy" did welcome the military coup that overthrew the "constitutional" government of Nawaz Sharif? Now tell us why did they defend the supremacy of constitution back then, and use constitutional means to get him removed?
You earlier mentioned the military running cleaning canals or checking electricity meters. Could you care to tell us who it was that actually invited the military in to run public services like WAPDA, KESC etc, not to mention set up a parallel judicial system? This being before Oct 1999 of course.
Additionally you are still dodging the other question I put to you, and the quorom argument does not hold, as one can hardly use that argument for the whole of the last twelve months can we? But I will make it easier for you. Could you tell us the sort of 'parliamentary' activties that have been carried out by all the main parties in the last year?
Oh and one more thing. Just compare what these bunch of sick politicians were saying in 1999 and now. Why these politicians were not standing behind Nawaz Shareef if they have this much pain for democracy and illegality of Musharraf’s government.
Musharraf government might be “illegal” but is popular and most Pakistanis don’t want these politicians to come back and eat Pakistan like meat.
Pakistani political elite supports military regime
By G. Senarathna and K. Ratnayake
17 November 1999
Former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, speaking to a symposium in Toronto, Canada on November 8, said, “General Musharraf’s intentions look honest when he says that he will be fair in his approach and that he is motivated by patriotism.” Bhutto’s remarks, reported by the Pakistani newspaper Dawn, concerned the military chief who took power in a coup overthrowing the government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on October 12. Her speech reflected the common approach of the major political parties in Pakistan to the military overthrow.
The coup took place in the midst of growing agitation demanding Sharif’s resignation. The opposition launched its anti-government drive after the withdrawal of Pakistani-backed forces from the Kargil heights in Indian Kashmir last July. Sharif countered with a campaign of repression.
When the military took power in Pakistan, Bhutto, the leader of the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP), the main bourgeois opposition party, was in London, where she has been living in exile to avoid a jail sentence on corruption charges. At a press conference in London on October 19 Bhutto acknowledged that she had made contact with the army after the coup, seeking safe passage to return to Pakistan. Justifying the coup, she said that Sharif “created conditions” for the military take over. “He has sought to dismantle democracy…When he attacked the army there was a perception that he was politicizing the last non-political institution in the country. The army reacted,” she said. Bhutto hailed the coup leader, General Musharraf, as “a courageous and bold professional, committed to civilian order.”
Her claim that the military is a “non-political institution” is absurd. The Pakistani military has ruled the country, on and off, for a total of more than two decades since independence in 1947. Last month’s coup was the third military takeover in the 52-year history of the country. Even under civilian rule the generals have exercised enormous political influence.
The PPP leader offered to work with the military in an “interim council” that she expected Musharraf would set up. But the military instead indicated it would charge Bhutto for corruption as part of its effort to “cleanse society”.
Despite this, in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, Bhutto reiterated that she was “ready to offer any kind of informal help (to the military) … in the interest of the country.” Having received the signal from the party leader in London, PPP leaders within Pakistan proceeded to bow to the new military regime. The Dawn newspaper reported that PPP former minister and senator Iqbal Haider praised the military leader, saying he “sounded more like a sincere, well-meaning, humble and committed patriot.”
Among the vociferous supporters of the coup was the politician-turned cricket captain Imran Khan. He was quoted in the October 18 issue of Dawn as saying: “In view of this serious situation the entire nation and all democratic parties have welcomed the dismissal of the Nawaz government and takeover by the army.”
The Muttihida Qaumi Movement (MQM), based on Indian Muslims who fled to Pakistan during the partition of 1947, took the same stand. When the general announced he would carry out IMF dictates, MQM said: “It is a popular agenda.” In a November 1 open letter to the military chief, MQM “recognized that the General had taken upon himself the task of national reconstruction, security and reorganization.”
Leaders of the nineteen-party Grand Democratic Alliance (GDA), which was formed three months back to escalate agitation to oust Nawaz Sharif, welcomed Musharraf’s October 17 policy declaration. The military chief’s “program is in complete harmony with our agenda and we support it,” said the GDA in a statement issued after its leaders met on October 21. The GDA includes the PPP, MQM and other political parties. It excludes Jamaat-I-Islami and other fundamentalist groups.
Immediately after the coup, Jamaat Vice President Prof. Gaffoor Ahmed said: “The whole nation has supported the army takeover and hopes he (Musharraf) will not unnecessarily prolong his rule.” But in recent days a conflict has arisen between the Jamaat-I-Islami and the military ruler. In an interview given to Turkish TV, Musharraf said he admired the Turkish nationalist and secularist leader Kemal Ataturk, who ruled Turkey in 1920s, and would like to direct Pakistan in line with Kemal’s program. In response to this statement, Jamaat leader Qazi Hussein Ahmed declared there was no room for a secular government in Pakistan, whereupon the army banned him from entering his home province, the North West Frontier Province, for 30 days. Jamaat said it would go to the courts against this ban…
To read complete article click here
Most stupid comment is of Proff.Ghafoor who’s party is shouting more than any other party these days. Comeon Why not “prolong” ? I mean illegal government is illegal no matter if its for a day of 10 years.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
Be careful of what you wish for. Today it is Mr. Hashmi, Tomorrow it could be someone close to you. Army and armymen look good in Barracks not in Senate or Parliament whatever you call it.
[/QUOTE]
yes they don.. but in pakistan's case, we just always seem to do better with these generals n power rather then civilian governments. thats sad, but thats life!
Here is what most papers and analysts said about the arrest:
Hashmi was arrested from Parliament Lodges October 29, and was charged with “abetting mutiny amongst the personnel of armed forces and inciting public at large to bring the constitutional government into disrepute.”
Bad decision to detain Javed Hashmi
In the event, it would do all of us a lot of good if the government were to release Mr Hashmi immediately. The manner in which he has been picked up is all too familiar: an unknown person filing a first information report and the government promptly acting on that to save Pakistan from Mr Hashmi’s mischief. We are now told that the national accountability bureau is also planning to get a piece of the action as it did a couple of years ago when Mr Hashmi was made its guest. This is clearly trumped up. Worse, it further mars the entire concept of accountability and makes the exercise suspect by presenting the bureau as a handmaiden of the government of the day. Ironically, though, this is exactly what Mr Hashmi’s erstwhile boss Nawaz Sharif was so fond of doing. But he is no more. The good thing about history is that it tends to repeat itself; the bad thing is that we refuse to learn from it
In the long run the arrest of Hashmi has opened a Pandora’s Box, further discrediting the image of the army amongst the masses.
i dont think the army's image has suffered from Javed hashmi's arrest at all! infact the govt should arrest more and more of these traitors and put them beind bars fro good so that Pakistan could be at peace once and for all. Infact Gen Musharraf should have done that right after he became CE in 1999. With the way things are in Pakistan today only something of a guillotine could help & save the country from such 'monarchs' of democrats!
And by the way, ppl seem to forget very easily that Gen Musharraf did not SEIZE power, nor did he commit a crime, nor is he a traitor! He was made to take over by Nawaz Sharif's 'superhuman' plan to be king that failed and saved our country. We must thank Allah for putting Pakistan in Gen Musharraf's hands. What did the ppl who call him a criminal, dictator or traitor want him to do after he landed from his flight from Sri Lanka to Karachi which was carrying over a hundred local and int'l civilians, the country's army chief, his wife and few other senior officers and as i've heard (but am not sure) Imran Khan too and was refused to land!? what did these fans of democracy want from him? should he have walked straight to the PM house in islamabad to put his head on Nawaz's feet? or should he have arrested the PM and made the deputy PM? but then again as the question arises, what authority would he have had to do so!? In that case, who else was responsible for anything at the time at all!? the COAS had to take charge because due to nawaz sharif's insane ideas the govt and the democracy had collapsed already! So the COAS could not have left the country for another mad man to ravage cause he is trained to defend the country from any threat external or internal! And had Gen Mush left the supreme commander's chair empty even for a day a lot would have happened against Pakistan's interest. Those who have any knowledge of history, politcal sciences, strategic studies etc would know that in such a case the worst could have happened; even India could have taken advantage of the confusion to find it approprate to attack! law and order could have been out of control!
All these ppl who talk agaist the amry and gen Mush now were out on the streets distributing 'mithaai' and dancing. Everyone issed statement in support of the change. why didn't they condemn the change right then? probabaly hoping that gen Mush would sell and let them all have a part to play in looting again. Benazir thoght he would call her, others had similar ideas but after sometime they realized he wasn't going to be sold so they began their propaganda against him and his restrictions against corruption and corrupt people and have been using democracy as a tool to get back waht they have lost!
Too bad this happened! Army and generals only look good in the barraks and the battlefied.