Re: London - riots
What i'm saying (and said in previous posts) is that the rioters are mainly doing it for fun, they arent targeting wealthy businesses at all, they're actually targeting their favourite stores like Adidas lol, they're just after free goods and are taking advantage of the original reasons for the riots starting. That's why i've said they should be given full responsibility for their actions!
Totally agree..
Re: London - riots
re: bold portion -- very true. I agree......but even if we assume that the "unknown portion" is a very small ratio, the method by which the real issues are being conveyed will do nothing BUT distract from them.
please tell me you are not suggesting that there isn't a better way to bring those issues to light.....
i dont think it is a rational process at all. those who are commenting on the injustice and wishing to shift the discourse there are typically not part of the rioters, they merely aspire to give voice to their unstated, implicit [imo] aspirations.
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so i hear some disturbances and looting begins in manchester too now after liverpool and birmingham?
any ideas?
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^They burnt down Miss Selfridge in Manchester.
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There are about 2,000 people on the streets, hard to control for Police.
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Interesting. How long, where did you work and with which organization? And what was work exactly?
It was just a local grass-roots initiative. I lived smack between Brixton Hill and Streatham Hill for under one year. I also lived between Lewisham and Peckham for just over six months. We were some guys looking to make right, I got into some rough business because for a while I lost my heading, This is when I started boxing which led to unsanctioned underground prize-fighting which led to me getting involved with unsavoury characters. We started doing music (PDC and Suspect boys) first and then got into some other stuff. Funny because there is still a rivalry between the Brixton and Peckham boys. Anyway, the work was a few of us found our way out of the mess and we started trying to work with the high-ups (Jaja, Nyia, Ramsey, etc... PDCEnt now) and trying to prevent youngsters following their footsteps and getting into this dodgy business. We organised talks, shared experiences and how we came out better because of such experiences. A lot of kids listened and a whole other lot didn't, that's just how it is I suppose. Probably more than I should have let go but yeah, whatever.
There we go. Many of the things you go onto write about are directly resulting from this.
Not really. At some point there might have been such prejudice but most of these youngsters haven't seen the days their elders have. Its a lack of role models and other things I have described. We love to talk about the failure of society. Anyone remember 'Hug a Hoodie'? What a load of bollocks really. I spent a lot of time amongst these people, I was one of them FFS. Its just irrational prejudice against authority. Nothing much. Watch Channel U sometimes, you'll see how they glorify such gansters. I know the BBK boys and you can listen to them griming. They are people I know but I don't agree with a lot of their talk. I mean PDC meant Pussy-Drugs-Cash. You tell me what you can read from that.
General culture doesnt emerge from nothing. The desire to get money is not a trait limited to Brixton and Haringey. Materialism and consumerism is the language of the culture in general. The 'easy' impulse arises from the oppression/exclusion aspects you mentioned earlier. There is no non-easy way to live the life you and me might have access to by getting city jobs if their future prospects include working retail and in chicken shops as you say.
Yeah, the desire to get money is a trait present in probably every single human being in the world. And no, I know enough of such 'oppressed/excluded' youngsters who turned their lives around and are doing good for themselves. Maybe not drug lords but they are making a living. I mentioned Nyia earlier. He was a heavy character in South London. Now all he does is work the night at Sainsbury's and looks after his two daughters as a single dad. He saves some money to spend on studio time and goes MC'ing in raves. Just one example. I have lots more. My point was the fact that a lot of people choose to settle down and work towards a stable future while others don't. You can't blame a segment of society because they are doing well, just like you can't absolve another section if they aren't. No one owes them anything.
All I can say is going through these neighbourhoods, and I happen to live close enough to have to pass through one every day, I do not see a lifestyle that says indulgence. For all the arse wiping you list, I can see a difference as clear as day between the lifestyle these people have, and that of those who are a part of the good society. Be that in terms of educational and professional opportunities or in terms of material possessions or in terms of standard of living.
You happen to live close. I've been through the life. Sure, it was not something I grew up in (I grew up a universe apart) but I know those people, I know their families, I know their culture, I know how they think. Its opportunism at its best. No excuses Ravage. Yeah, you can see a difference because some choose that path while others are happy to try and live the live of a gangster, because it gets them money, girls and power. Fact. Opportunities in England are equal, too PC in my opinion. And I say that even after knowing a whole lot of these guys.
Lets remember that injustice is always a sliding scale. At the time of the french revolution, the aristocrat who said 'Let them eat cake' could rightly have said look these peasants are so much better off than our grandparents kept them, or they are so much better off than the slaves we ship off to Africa. And they would have been right. But they still got their heads chopped off.
That my friend is not the case anymore. There is ample opportunity for people these days in England to sort their lives out. Trust me I can list tens and tens of individual cases where they came from nothing more than a broken home without any family and yet have worked on their lives,. Simply put, these guys aren't okay with such activities. There is no frustration, there is no desperation, this is mindless opportunism. Its very malicious in nature. Let's not make excuses here.
As for millions of people working, how do you know that those rioting dont have those kindof minimal wage jobs? It is speculation to say these are just unemployed people.
I never said they are unemployed. I say a large part of them are unemployed. The average age of these looters is under 20. They are mostly teenagers. Youngsters who have no accountability. We can't blame the government for that. The guy who got shot for example was a gangster, clear as the sky. Yet these people come out in support and now come out purely to satisfy their malicious whims. I call BS to any injustice. I can say all this because I was one of them for some time of my life.
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^They burnt down Miss Selfridge in Manchester.
yup city centre is in trouble now! they try to break in arndale too ...is this their new idea of adventure ..breaking into malls and looting !
terrible !!! :/
hubby's in the hospital ..and is on call ..and if they declare it an emergency then he might have to stay! didn't have much of a sehri either :(
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I pray for things in London to get back to normal soon inshAllah.
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Riots to carry out in Birmingham city centre today,got told off to stay away from few places.
Re: London - riots
I worked a lot with some community members (ex-gang members and some current gang members) in South and South-East London. We would visit council estates most of the time and have talks and door-to-door visits to talk with the youth, their families and such like. Most of the time there was no 'family'. You'd have children being raised by their 'tough' cousins or 'tough' uncles/aunts or such like. No role models to look up to, nothing to say the least. That is the issue.
Yeah, there was oppression, exclusion, etc... at some point in time but now its all about lack of strong role models, the desire to get easy money, pathetically sissy legislation and general culture. The reason most youngsters gave us were they wanted to make money. Apparently making money to them means hustling and not doing work that is dignified. They crave power and control, that was the jist of it. I'm still in touch with lots of them, you might know of PDC, Suspect and of course a lot of the Yardie 'factions'; there is no organised Yardie presence. Even now, they are only talking about making paper and ****ing with the pigs. Trust me, its not injustice or frustration. Its simple fanaticism.
They have been given enough chances to sort their lives out. The UK literally wipes your arse if you're a citizen. If millions of people can choose to work as chicken-shop assistants, supermarket trolley collectors, weekend market stall salespersons, etc... why can't these yobs pick that? Simply because they want more, they crave more and so it goes on and on. You get JSA, you get education, you get vocational courses, you get a bloody PC system that won't say a word and yet you run about wreaking havoc like this? Piss poor excuses for anything.
Jamal and Sean don't want to play ping-pong at the youth center. There are no justifications for this. And the government's response is pathetic.
Heads need to roll.
Your post suggests that these teenagers have themselves to blame for their misfortune but I would respectfully disagree. These teenagers are at a disadvantage to begin with compared to others who are brought up in more influential areas. Although, I agree that the majority of these kids have probably just got on the bandwagon to get freebies and have fun, there is bigger issues that need to be addressed by the government and that is thinking about the future of youths.
I agree, they do need more role models, but before role models they need stability which needs to be provided by the love and support of a family. However, like u said many of these kids are either brought up by either extended family or single parents (and lets not forget children from care homes). Therefore, the issue lays in educating parents and carers and giving them the support they need.
I have briefly studied the youth in the London area and it appears the government hasn't made it easy (in the earlier days) by first of all segregating ethnic/class groups across the capital which has led to deprivation in certain areas and a lack of understanding for each others cultures and beliefs. Then (IMO) there is the big issue of parenting, there is evidence to support that single mothers working a low paid job will take on an authoritarian parenting style (extremely strict) who will often turn to physical abuse as a means of punishment which can mentally effect the child and their home relationship. This then leads the children to finding comfort in others ie. friends. like I already said in my earlier post these kids dont understand the value of community, caring or loving they just think about themselves and are just plain greedy. They might be thugs and criminals now, but I dont believe its their fault for what they have become but more socities fault.
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Your post suggests that these teenagers have themselves to blame for their misfortune but I would respectfully disagree. These teenagers are at a disadvantage to begin with compared to others who are brought up in more influential areas. Although, I agree that the majority of these kids have probably just got on the bandwagon to get freebies and have fun, there is bigger issues that need to be addressed by the government and that is thinking about the future of youths. I agree, they do need more role models, but before role models they need stability which needs to be provided by the love and support of a family. However, like u said many of these kids are either brought up by either extended family or single parents (and lets not forget children from care homes). Therefore, the issue lays in educating parents and carers and giving them the support they need.
I have briefly studied the youth in the London area and it appears the government hasn't made it easy (in the earlier days) by first of all segregating ethnic/class groups across the capital which has led to deprivation in certain areas and a lack of understanding for each others cultures and beliefs. Then (IMO) there is the big issue of parenting, there is evidence to support that single mothers working a low paid job will take on an authoritarian parenting style (extremely strict) who will often turn to physical abuse as a means of punishment which can mentally effect the child and their home relationship. This then leads the children to finding comfort in others ie. friends. like I already said in my earlier post these kids dont understand the value of community, caring or loving they just think about themselves and are just plain greedy. They might be thugs and criminals now, but I dont believe its their fault for what they have become but more socities fault.
I mentioned that yes, there are issues. I do not absolve the past governments and their policies from blame. I sympathise with a lot of the disadvantaged youth from a lot of these 'ghettos'. Not the ones that act upon their whims though. My objection was to the opinion that somehow that justifies this behaviour. It does not. Issues need to be addressed and at some point in time they might have been disadvantaged. But like I mentioned, if so many of them can find a way out then I don't quite see why a lot of them should still be lingering in unsavoury environments. There are community outreach programs, a great deal of time and money goes into that kind of stuff. Why still do these youngsters choose to live this life?
Also, I wouldn't limit this to just youngsters in the ghetto. I know of a lot of 'well off' families who have problems with youth. The looters aren't all disadvantaged or troubled. Most are there just for the freebies now. Like any society, there is a disadvantaged segment. The issue would be if society wasn't doing anything to offset that. My reservation is that society is infact doing a lot to counter such past prejudices. If I'm being handed a way out on a platter and I don't accept it because I want something better, quicker and with more thrill involved then honestly I don't deserve any sympathy.
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I don't think it's about "justifying" their behaviour, it's about understanding their behaviour.
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Interesting! Certainly an eventful life. Slightly confused about the details, you lived in South and SouthEast London for a year and a half during which you both got into gangs and got out of them..? Or did you mean you lived there during the time you were working wiht the higher ups after getting out of the gangs.
Im not sure why these are mutually exclusive. Do you mean to say that the experience of this gentleman doesnt correspond to reality? You say you know a lot of people making it out of their stations in life, perhaps you should note that the UK has the lowest social mobility rates amongst developed countries. The chances of a UK child doing better than his parents are lower than in other places.
You point to culture, I say again PDC represents the same culture that exists in the rest of the modern world, albeit in a cruder wrapper. Thats just consumerism. The glorification of crime results from it being the most accessible way to get the glorified PDC [where lets take D to include flash cars and designer clothes]. In that sense it is just mainstreaming.
Once again, see the report I link above. Opportunities in the England are NOT equal by any means. Also, the intent in saying I’ve seen how they live is to simply say that I have seen both segments of society, and regardless of what your personal experiences are I find it hard to believe that you think there is no difference between the opportunities and lifestyle Toff Toffington has and what someone growing up in Brixton does. That just stretches credulity, and I have to believe you were oversimplifying to make a point.
Most of my friends work in the city, and I have spent five years in the academia. The experience of both groups of people is that these are spheres where black people, and lower class people in general, are a rarity. Yeah you know a few people who work in Sainsbury to avoid getting into gangster life but that isnt really my point. The life that is advertised and promoted as ideal in this culture is inaccessible to most of these people no matter how many hours they work at Sainsburys, and that is no small thing.
On what basis?
There is a world of difference between some being a gangster and someone who should have been shot. Warna to you were a part of a gang too. Should you have been shot?
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So are there incidences of inequality in terms of investigations when it comes to the black/gang communities?
Why were the people not satisfied with waiting for the results of the official investigation? In other words, why is justice through the system not good enough for the black community?
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Interesting! Certainly an eventful life. Slightly confused about the details, you lived in South and SouthEast London for a year and a half during which you both got into gangs and got out of them..? Or did you mean you lived there during the time you were working wiht the higher ups after getting out of the gangs.
I lived in South London for over three years. This one and half year stretch was during the time I was involved with some of the gangs. The initiative some of us took on began near the end of and further on from that time.
Im not sure why these are mutually exclusive. Do you mean to say that the experience of this gentleman doesnt correspond to reality? You say you know a lot of people making it out of their stations in life, perhaps you should note that the UK has the lowest social mobility rates amongst developed countries. The chances of a UK child doing better than his parents are lower than in other places.
And why are the chances of a UK child doing better than his parents so low? Rather than blame past prejudices maybe we should look at the current opportunity. Just because you were wronged in the past does not mean you can hold on to that and whine for as long as you live. You have opportunities to move along and work on yourself. Too bad you don't avail of them. That is the point everyone seems to be missing out on. Not sure why.
You point to culture, I say again PDC represents the same culture that exists in the rest of the modern world, albeit in a cruder wrapper. Thats just consumerism. The glorification of crime results from it being the most accessible way to get the glorified PDC [where lets take D to include flash cars and designer clothes]. In that sense it is just mainstreaming.
And that is a problem. I do have a problem with such glorification. I do have a problem when role models are gun toting, booty slapping, ice-grilled and souped up whip driving gangsters. If you think that's okay just because its consumerism than I really don't think you get my point. Its not okay, no matter how mainstream it is. Most people latch onto such mainstream culture/trends. Its an undeniable fact. Humans are parasites - to popular culture, to the latest fashion, to the latest intellectual discussion, to the latest actor or actress; we need something to latch on to. Some choose their picking, some don't. Atleast that's my real-world take on it.
Once again, see the report I link above. Opportunities in the England are NOT equal by any means. Also, the intent in saying I've seen how they live is to simply say that I have seen both segments of society, and regardless of what your personal experiences are I find it hard to believe that you think there is no difference between the opportunities and lifestyle Toff Toffington has and what someone growing up in Brixton does. That just stretches credulity, and I have to believe you were oversimplifying to make a point.
Maybe you should live down Brixton and make a judgement call then? Or how about you take a walk into town one of these days and have a chat with the locals? They're all friendly people and maybe when you hear the story from those that live there, you might just change your mind or atleast understand what I'm having a go at. Opportunity might not be equal but are we to blame that for being a catalyst? 'eh I don't know that.
Most of my friends work in the city, and I have spent five years in the academia. The experience of both groups of people is that these are spheres where black people, and lower class people in general, are a rarity. Yeah you know a few people who work in Sainsbury to avoid getting into gangster life but that isnt really my point. The life that is advertised and promoted as ideal in this culture is inaccessible to most of these people no matter how many hours they work at Sainsburys, and that is no small thing.
A rarity but they are there. I might have spent my time in the rough ends but I have a pretty vast social circle, I know some of the big fish in London and some of the small fish (In terms of wealth, influence, status and perceived social value) and I get to see both segments of society. You see and hear about stories of people 'breaking out' all the time. I wonder what suddenly dawns upon them that they can manage to get away? You believe in luck, I believe in personal responsibilty and perseverence. And its not just low-tier service industry jobs. I know people who make hundreds of thousands of pounds in months doing legitimate work. Young guys who worked along side us to help tackle such social problems that belonged to such areas. They chose to carry on working hard at their education and are employed by major organisations in Finance, Sports, Media, etc... you name it. And honestly, a good life is inaccessible to the majority of the world's population yet you don't see the majority of the world population getting out on the streets for days of mindless violence and plunder. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it.
On what basis?
Authorities commented on that. Check the news.
There is a world of difference between some being a gangster and someone who should have been shot. Warna to you were a part of a gang too. Should you have been shot?
If I was carrying a gun and proceeded to b*****sh it in the presence of police. I deserved to get shot. How many shots would I have had to fire to justify counter-fire from the police? Aye, you see where I'm going with this?
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I mean I don't mind playing the devil's advocate but seriously, the world isn't as simple and can't always be explained from just observation.
Re: London - riots
**Update:
2203:** ****
BBC Radio Manchester listener Eddie Vaughn, who is in the Deansgate area of the city, says it isn't just young people that are involved in the rioting but people in their late 30s and early 40s "who should know better". "And there was kids there as young as 12,13," he says. "There was also the ubiquitous spotters on their bikes - basically going round checking where the bobbies were and coming back and letting the rest of them know."
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what is going on?
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A story heard a tale was told, but how do the street words unfold
This melting pot we live in was sealed with a lid
The pressure built and the leaders hid
Behind denying veils of arrogance they stood to show their might
Flaunt their excesses and jealousy incite
A fable of riotous greedy gangs narrated
Perhaps the classes were underestimated
No induction would work to calm them again
They broke out of their cages then
The cooker released its burdens from within
The average boy became the man of sin
Yet blame lies on both sides if one should see
Where poverty strikes, patient - a man should be
And as for those in aristocracy
Should lend an ear and show compassion ….
And offer a hand to lift a man and help how he can learn to “be”.
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what is going on?
Nothing much - The British Administration has been so freaking busy in restoring peace in other countries thus they forget to clean their own backyard :)