Kismet, Destiny, Fate! Is it really that hard to understand?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Pristine Bhai,

To my understanding, I do believe that Allah does not know what decision I will make but Allah knows what will be the outcome of my decision.

[quote]

Its not like a multiple choice question, that Allah has four different paths outlined for us and we will take one of them, and Allah doesn't know which one will we select.
[/quote]

Maybe he does, how can you say he doesn't?

One of the good qualities of a computer programmer is that he knows each and every detail, about what his program will do if any input is given.

Consider Allah the best of all programmers, and then consider His knowledge being All-Knowing!

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changez, i feel that it is neccessary to think about important questions and issues AND this is one.

this for me was an important to thing to consider, the PURPOSE of life.

and to me, the islamic answer to this does not sit well with me.

the purpose of life is to serve an all-powerful God so that I can get into a heaven full of all sorts of sensual pleasures?

is not a good enough answer for me.

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Now we are getting some interesting replies. Thank you guys

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Now, I am going to concentrate on 3 replies, namely from mbmagsi, ahmadjee and Changez_like.

mbmagsi said:

ahmadjee said:

Changez_Like already expressed his feedback on this approach. My problem with this line of thought is that I firmly believe that Allah is All-Knowing. Our decisions good or bad are all in His Knowledge. He created us, and He is aware of what is in our hearts and our minds and our future and our past and everything about us.

And as Changez_Like said, when Allah knows where we will end up (paradise or hell-fire) right at the point when our souls are created (even before we are born), then its all the more relevant to ask, what is the point? I hope he (Changez_Like) has some back-up to this statement from Quran or religious scripts.

ahmadjee, pls read below, my opinion on analogies, which also applies to your analogy of computer programmer.

0nE-EyEd: Please take another shot. I am having trouble with analogies, as I consider Allah to be All-Knowing, All-Supreme and there is no limit to His knowledge, so I am struggling to apply man-made concepts of doctor-patient (with limited knowledge compared to Allah Ta’llah) to understand the answer. Thanks.

Someone mentioned the love of mother vith respect to love of Allah. So lets put it in another way, to use your analogy, take an example of a husband and wife who are going to mate to create a baby. Lets assume they somehow know that any baby they are going to create right at that moment will be an unsuccessful person in life, will commit murders on this world and will be thrown in hell-fire in the here-after. Do you think those parents will go through with creating that baby? Should they go through with creating that baby? Whats the point of those parents creating such a baby when they definitively know that he will be the fuel of hell-fire? Will it be fair on that baby? Now Allah loves us more than our mothers love us. Why would Allah create souls who He knows will end up in hell-fire?

ThandyMazaq - Meray bhai, you lost me somewhere in your 6th line. I am unable to link the relationship between a particle and my original question. Help us understand what you are trying to say.

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ps. Ahmed, only my 3rd paragraph was addressed to you, as it had your name right before it. The rest was for general consumption. If I had wanted to address the whole thing to you I would have said so. Stop being so defensive all the time, and relax. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that.

As far as I am concerned, I don’t have an opinion on this issue, hence the question. As I said early on in this thread, I don’t know the answer, and I doubt if any of us will have a definitive answer anyway. We are just taking the opportunity to express our opinions and feelings to something which is not so easy to understand. Everyone realizes that, right?

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[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 10, 2001).]

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Pristine Bhai,

If I remember correctly, Quran mentions the case of Moses (as) who was foretold of the promised land! His followers however didn't had the same plans ... and so Hazrat Mosa (as) never got to the promised land.

So if Allah knew what his followers were going to do, then why tell Moses (as)something else?

Let me go home and search up the refrence for you.

[quote]
Ahmed ... Stop being so defensive all the time, and relax.
[/quote]

Which Ahmad was that for? Hehe Please make yourself clear! ;~)

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ahmadjee:

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I know my spellings (well, most of the time anyway) :~P

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pristine it was kinda easy for me ..may b u didnt get my point..i said that if something can travel through time, it means that it can be at future or past at any given time...meanign that if i were to have a time machine i could watch your entire life and see any given moment of your life...but i do not effect what you do at all ....i am just watching you...its the similar concept with allah knowing all...i think it should be easier now....if someone of something has time travel capabilities it simple means that it/he can view all that is to occur and all that has occured any time he/it wanted but he/it watching us does not effect what we do, so in turn we still have our free will but allah still knows what we will do.....get it now?now its in its simplest form...

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ThandayMazaq: Ok, this helps. Your views are more clear.

Now will you please click on page 1 of this topic and in my reply towards the end, I have put in an analogy of parents and their baby. Go through it and then tell me what your opinion is. Thanks

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

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hmmm :-\
Confusing.
Ok, first of all, i'm confused about all this too, so might not be able to give you a response which even makes sense. Secondly, this is a very complex sort of question. i.e. you could find loopholes in every answer you're provided with. So an answer which might satisfy me, might not make sense to you.

Anyway, your question is, If Allah knows how we're going to spend our lives or if we're going to go to Heaven/Hell, then why are we even given time on this earth right? why not just be sent to Heaven/Hell..? or rather whats the use or need of this excercise?

Anyway, the way I see it, is that its a part of a whole sequence, maybe the first couple of steps, in the staircase of life. Lets say 3 people go to an interview, and its almost certain that a certain one is going to get the job, then why the need for the interview? Well the interview is part of the whole job selection process. Know what I'm saying? Or let me give you another example. Did you see the Pak vs Bdesh match? It was certain(well almost) that Pak were going to win, then why play the match? Why not just hand the trophies and go home? Because its part of a whole process, The Icc test championship(or whatever).

And the other thing is, I dont think there is any such thing as qismat. We make our lives as we go along. And we alone determine our destiny. Allah knows it because he's the all-knower, but he didn't GIVE you your qismat/future.. but he DOES know about it. Spot the difference in the comparison that is being made there?

And come on, does this analogy 'why dont we just go straight to hell or heaven'.. even make sense? Why would you bear the consequenses of something you've never done? Sure, Allah knows about it. But you haven't gone through LIFE do deserve the consequenses that you're given.. right?

Very confusing :-\

Kaante Chunkar Tera Daaman Phoolon Se Main Bhar Jaaoonga,
Is Se Badi Saza Kya Hogi, Maaf Tujhe Main Kar Jaaoonga

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Ok.. It’s an important question brother.

Maybe I need to add clarification to what I mentioned above. We, Humans, are created and all of our actions are created, all of our thoughts, doings intentions, All created and willed by Allah.

What needs to be clear, is that we, the humans, and jinn, Hava a will. We have a will by which we choose what we desire from the options that are availabe whether good or evil. However, our will is under the will of Allah, that means if Allah did not will for us do something, it will not happen.

You asked: “There is no way Mr ABC can change this fate.”

Well, no one can change destiny that’s for sure. And Allah does not change. However we change, we change our will, our intention, and our doings.

No we are not enforced to follow destiny. It’s just that ** Allah knew eternally that we are going to choose so and so from good and evil. We chose it, Allah had the knowledge of that eternally because he is our creator, yet we don’t know what we will choose nor what will happen to us. But everything we do is by our own will and strenght which is UNDER the will of the alimighty Allah.**

Allah knows best.

<<>> Learning the Obligatory Knowledge of the Religion puts the Muslim on the road for excellence and self-betterment. Acquire The Islamic Knowledge Before You Discuss Religion!!

Ahmad/Islamic Studies

[This message has been edited by Ahmad G (edited September 11, 2001).]

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well pristine ur parents analogy is i must say very confusing. i do not think i can explain it fully cause i dont understand it my self...so can you give my some time for my to clearly think about this matter so i just dont blabber out stuff i am not sure about my self (which i have noticed many ppl doing on this forum...hhhhehe...no offense to any one ..)....

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Yes we do now ask How or where or when about Allah. Yet, we "must" understand the attributes of Allah by acquiring the knowledge of ^aqeedah (which is a must on every person).

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Here goes…

The issue of fate and destiny is complex but can be explained quite easily.

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Allah (swt) is the all knowing and eternal, hence time does not apply to him. So when time does not apply to him, HE knows the beginning, the middle and the end. Therefore that is how he knows what we are going to do. HE has given us rules to follow with proof that this is the correct way and free will to either follow these rules or not. Now if we follow them that is up to us and if we don’t that is up to us aswell. HE knows what we will do because HE has seen it, and not made us do it. It’s like when someone who watches what we are doing from a distance and knows what we are doing but doesn’t interfere. Is it clear?

Now HE sent Prohets to guide us to the correct path so that we can go to jannah but if we follow this path is up to us. We are not ‘free’ because if we do a sin we will be puhished for it. HE gave us the choice, because if we hadn’t why should we be accounted for something that is out of our control.

The issue of why HE created us or HE created us because HE is just, is a question we can’t ask because we cannot understand what Allah (swt) is because we are limited by our minds. All we know is that HE is the supreme being and even this we cannot understand fully. **What is eternity? ** Do we even understand this?

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Now what we should look at is if we know that Allah (swt) exists then what HE says is correct (since there is proof from text aswell as rational thinking of Allah (swt)).

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What fate, destiny or kismet is, is given in a good example by Ali (ra).
A man came to Ali (ra) and said: “what is fate?”, Ali (ra) replied, “raise one leg”, the man did, then he said “now raise the other leg aswell”, at which the man said “i cannot, i will fall”, to which Ali replied “this is fate”. Fate is something that is out of our control such as death or things like gravity that we cannot overcome on earth. But the actions we do are in our control, such as where we go and what we do.

i hpoe this is clear? :smile:

if not here is something with alot more deatil: http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/english.html
go to adopted books- The System of Islam and then chap 2, Al-Qadaa wal Qadar.

**Khilafah- the need of the time. **

[This message has been edited by -asim- (edited September 13, 2001).]

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hey pristine…well i thought and thought about this subject so what ever came to my mind i am telling you. this is not from any quranic ayats or hadiths because in islam these kinds of questions are not essential so they are not discussed in detail. i my self dont care about them but i am only trying to explain them to you because people seem to base their religion and faith on these useless questions and some have left over them (i-n-i) so it is my duty to try to make sure you are content with islam. so here it goes. again it is from my thoughts so i cant guarantee them to be true but they are in good will. hope you appreciate them.
any way…you talked about if two parents know about a child to be born out of them will commmit bad deeds and what not and will cause mischeif on earth, so would they create that baby ? well your analogy was that if allah knows that a person is going to commit wrong deeds and stuff and is going to hell and since he loves us more than our mothers then why does he create him if he knows he will suffer the punishment of hell. this is your question right???well look, love is a very strong feeling, and makes us do things we would normally not be able to do right? for example if god forbid ur mother or wife or who ever you love the most was in danger, you would endanger your life and even lose it to save them rite? most peopole will. so in a sense, love is an abnormal feeling that makes us do things that we would normally dont want to do..right?or hate, if you hate some one you might harm them right? again, your hate made you harm that person right.so it is established that love and hate are feelings that take over our mind and make us do things we in our right sense would not want to do.but Allah is all powerful, nothing can “make” or “force” him to do against his desires, and this applies also to love and hate, his love for a human being can not stop him from creating a person who he knows will goto hell and suffer pain because it is his will to creat a person, so his will can not be altered by any thing, and love and hate are included in it. look, why does allah so says that no one will die untill the time of his death that is written in the book, or no nation will be destroyed untill the exact time, and qiyamat will not come until the exact time??? i mean no matter how much acts of kufr and sin you may commit, and how much suffering you may cause to allah’s people, (you will surely make allah mad and angry) your time will not be reduced and you will still get your rizq(food and other stuff) that is destined for you. if allah is so mad at a nation, (americans for sure) why does he not destroy them? but his anger can not make him destroy the ameicans and who ever before the time he has written and the time he “wants” them destroyed. i hope you get what i am saying. that love and hate kind of take over your mind and make you do things you normally would not. for example if you and your loved one are in a plane and god forbid it starts to crash, you only have one parachute, most people will give it to their loved ones and tell them to save theri life. now imagine you are in a plane with a stranger and the plane starts to crash, you only have one parachute, then most people will choose to take the parchute for them and have a fight for the parachute.get it, love made you do a thing that killed you, so in a way, love took over you and forced you to do something, but since allah is all powerful, love or hate or any thing else can’t “force” him to do things he dont want to do and can’t “force” him to no do things he wants to do. its the best i can explain, even now if you dont get it then i apoligize but i tried my best, you can ask allah to guide you to right answer. and as an advise, asking these kind of questions is not essential for our lives and does not effect us so i would suggest you to concentrate more on other islamic teachings that are clearly stated in quran and hadiths…wallah he alam