Re: Khawarij- open discussion
The gulf will always exist and it will be unwise to trying to get too much into it. Every religion has people along the spectrum of the two extremes.
The solutions is to establish welfare states and the problem will take care of itself.
Just my 2 cents
Interesting thought, how will a welfare state brigde the gap between liberal minded and conservative minded muslims? Please elaborate.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
By incalcating a sense of oneness beyond religious indoctrinations. By establishing rule of law that rewards love rather than hatred. By promoting an environment where people do not have to or are not labelled into one group or another.
At present, even though the overwhelming majority of muslims fall in between the two extremes of liberalism and extremism, they are being forced to align themselves to one of the two.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
[quote] By incalcating a sense of oneness beyond religious indoctrinations. By establishing rule of law that rewards love rather than hatred. By promoting an environment where people do not have to or are not labelled into one group or another
but the problem is that the ideal form of govt. in islam is the caliphate that is accepted by all muslims ....but in practical application we run into problems
e.g nonmuslims CANNOT be of the same status as muslims
[much like US citizens are not the same as non-citizens today] but at the same time there is zero tolerence for explotation of nonmuslims by majority.....now to some that is the bare minimum implementation of islam, to others a outdated mediveal way of governing a state .....but if you look at the early role-models of both sunnis and shias that is how they treated non-muslims ...
and I am sorry i dont think that seperating state and religion is a solution to the problem .....it rather causes the problem.
[quote]
At present, even though the overwhelming majority of muslims fall in between the two extremes of liberalism and extremism, they are being forced to align themselves to one of the two
[/quote]
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this is exactly what we are trying to prevent
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
By incalcating a sense of oneness beyond religious indoctrinations. By establishing rule of law that rewards love rather than hatred. By promoting an environment where people do not have to or are not labelled into one group or another.
At present, even though the overwhelming majority of muslims fall in between the two extremes of liberalism and extremism, they are being forced to align themselves to one of the two.
The Islamic state does not differentiate welfare based on religious doctrine. Welfare has nothing to do with promoting love or groups. Its about providing citizens equal opportunities and justice. I cannot see how welfare establishes a missing link between liberals and conservatives.
Most of the muslims may be moderate in their ritual habits but it ends there. Who do you regard as liberal and who do you regard as extreme?
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
At present we have people who feel that a state based upon their religious doctrine will function better than the current situation Pakistan is, be they the liberal or the extremists. A welfare state can put an end to this.
As i said, you cannot reconcile all groups, it has never occured but you can make them live in peace with each otehr despite having their diferences.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
At present we have people who feel that a state based upon their religious doctrine will function better than the current situation Pakistan is, be they the liberal or the extremists. A welfare state can put an end to this.
As i said, you cannot reconcile all groups, it has never occured but you can make them live in peace with each otehr despite having their diferences.
Its true not all groups can be reconciled however what does a welfare state offer that a state run on Islamic principles cannot offer. I looking for examples or details in your argument. If we want to discuss then you need to present a comparison of the two based on what their theories state. The manifestation of each ideology is subject to the people, economy, geography and other factors.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
but the problem is that the ideal form of govt. in islam is the caliphate that is accepted by all muslims ....but in practical application we run into problems e.g nonmuslims CANNOT be of the same status as muslims [much like US citizens are not the same as non-citizens today] but at the same time there is zero tolerence for explotation of nonmuslims by majority.....now to some that is the bare minimum implementation of islam, to others a outdated mediveal way of governing a state .....but if you look at the early role-models of both sunnis and shias that is how they treated non-muslims ...
and I am sorry i dont think that seperating state and religion is a solution to the problem .....it rather causes the problem.
. this is exactly what we are trying to prevent
I understand the fascination of Muslims with Caliphate system. As a child and yung adolescence i whole heartedly beleived in Caliphate system but over the time, as i look more closely at it, i have serious doubts if Alah really wanted to establish a certain system of governance among muslims.
The reason i am saying this is that looking at the Caliphate in history of Islam, it itself had a very heterogenous system. Each Caliph was chosen in a different way. There has been no laid out rules in Quran and Sunnah on how to run a country or a system of governance. The common principle of Caliphate was to uphold the Islamic values and laws, which itself was done in different ways by different Caliphs. Therefore, many a contemporary Islamic scholars beleive that democracy is perfectly capable of upholding he Islamic principles.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
Its true not all groups can be reconciled however what does a welfare state offer that a state run on Islamic principles cannot offer. I looking for examples or details in your argument. If we want to discuss then you need to present a comparison of the two based on what their theories state. The manifestation of each ideology is subject to the people, economy, geography and other factors.
A state based on "religious doctrine" will alienate the people who do not beleive in that particular doctrine. A welfare state works for betterment of all citizens regardless of their doctrine.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
salam alaikum brother thanks for replying ......as you have rightly pointed out this is the dilemma which is causing the biggest problem amongst the muslim world today not just terrorism itself which is a symptom rather than the cause of the disease
what practical steps we can take in our local communities you think which can cause some bridging of the gulf between the two extremes ?
Peace Das Reich
If we live in the West we already have an advantage over those Muslims living in the Muslim countries.
In the West we need to study hard all of those cultural and social traits that can be seen to benefit mankind. When I mean study it has be more than skin deep. For example the fact that democracy is seen as good doesn't necessarily mean it so, we only need to look at the way the system manifests itself to realise its pitfalls. However, democracy is essential to reconcile the spectrum of views. Islam permits view formulation only by those who are qualified and thus the process of democracy is undertaken within the confines of the elite i.e. scholars, who present their views on a basis of evidence and context. It then becomes the leaders decision to take, i.e. the ameer can overule the predominant opinion, but it is generally understood that the opinions must be heard and the decision chosen should be from amongst the presented opinions, unless of course the leader is a scholar and has a basis for his own opinion.
Coming back to the answer ... we need to embrace the good elements of the society we live in. There are many good elements. We can go in to welfare helping the elderly and invalid, we can go into social work helping the disadvantaged and children from broken families, we can create resident associations and attract our neighbours to join them and be symbolically seen as their representatives. It will be so much more effective if this is done whilst maintaining an Islamic identity, i.e. hijab, beard, rules of conduct and behaviour should all be Islamic. Only then will they connect the dots and see that at the grass roots level the Muslims are the pillars of the community and not the people hyped up to be according to the media. The media are correct as far as the populous do not question them. If we are silent Muslims i.e. not seen in our communities then the media have a free reign.
We need to become teachers in state schools. It is important to have Muslim schools for those parents who wish to make their children into scholars of Islam, however, it is also important to have integration of Muslim children in state schools and Muslim teachers in state schools. The values one grows up with will reflect the values of his/her teacher. So well learned religious Muslims need to make a concerted effort to be employable in state schools.
This is the vein of thought that is required for turn the situation around inshaAllah.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
A state based on "religious doctrine" will alienate the people who do not beleive in that particular doctrine. A welfare state works for betterment of all citizens regardless of their doctrine.
Peace Iconoclast
The way around this is to seed the concepts, values and understandings of Islam in to society by our human interactions. Only when they acknowledge the worth of the code by seeing it manifest only then will people accept them. It is convenient for people to accept the principles of Islam without them knowing that Islam mandates or prefers them.
If we see something that is contra-Islam then we need to show its damage to society rather than exhume rage over it being anti-Islamic. The latter will only encourage the mischievous folk to poke the wounds.
So I agree with you, but in addition to creating a welfare state we need to realise that welfare in its best form is Islam.
Re: Khawarij- open discussion
A state based on "religious doctrine" will alienate the people who do not beleive in that particular doctrine. A welfare state works for betterment of all citizens regardless of their doctrine.
The basis for a welfare state is to provide or subsidize products or services to that sector of people that cannot afford to fulfill their basic necessities such as sustenance and medical treatment.
An Islamic state does not differentiate the rights to such things based on religious doctrine meaning muslim in need of sustenance or medical treatment will not be given preference over a non-muslim with the same needs.
Even if the state is Islamic then all subjects of the state have equal rights. There is nothing in the Quran to the effect which says to discriminate with non-muslims when living under the Islamic state.
Even in a democratic state the rights of those minorities that get trampled by majority opinion face an equal bias or alienation against the ideology of the majority. In an Islamic state it just so happens the same democratic ideology is vested in Islam.