Hold on if muslims opposed pakistan creation why they moved in there millions and millions from india into what now called pakistan!
They moved because they where told the state was for muslims and there belief of islam would be the law!
If you trying to tell me those millions who movedl moved for secualrism you must be dreaming!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Hold on if muslims opposed pakistan creation why they moved in there millions and millions from india into what now called pakistan!
They moved because they where told the state was for muslims and there belief of islam would be the law!
If you trying to tell me those millions who movedl moved for secualrism you must be dreaming!
[/QUOTE]
pakistan was not created for all mulims of southasia since in it is
impractical to fit bangaldeshi and indian muslims in such a small
country like pakistan. muslim majority areas became pakistan and bangaldesh. mulims like other indians are not monolithic they have
their own ethnic identity.
Keep oil out of politics... it belongs to business...you have to buy it in the open market and not to control it by force, immoral self-interest princiles and by supporting impotent kings/dictators...thats all!
**
Hold on if muslims opposed pakistan creation why they moved in there millions and millions from india into what now called pakistan!**
Where did I say that the muslims opposed the creation of Pakistan?
They moved because they where told the state was for muslims and there belief of islam would be the law!
"Partition riots" were the main reasons of migration.
Jinnah never said that the shariah will be imposed in Pakistan.
*If you trying to tell me those millions who movedl moved for secualrism you must be dreaming! *
No, the same reason, "partition riots."
Did Jinnah dream of a theocratic state?
"In any case Paksitan is not going to be a theocratic state - to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims - Hindus, Christians, and Parsis - but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan "
Those who still believe that the British-India was divided on the basis of the TNT must get their facts straight now. The British-India was divided between Pakistan and India becase the two main political parties were stuck in a deadlock. As Ayesha Jalal says that Jinnah always wanted an India united with a strong center, but he also wanted an effective Muslim voice at this center, thanks to the stupidity and arrogance of Congress it didn't happen.
And if it had happened that way, Indian Muslims would never have been divided. What a dream that would have been.
But no time for dreams now. Time for practice and following Jinnah's words.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by shawaiz: *
*
Hold on if muslims opposed pakistan creation why they moved in there millions and millions from india into what now called pakistan!**
Where did I say that the muslims opposed the creation of Pakistan?
They moved because they where told the state was for muslims and there belief of islam would be the law!
"Partition riots" were the main reasons of migration.
Jinnah never said that the shariah will be imposed in Pakistan.
*If you trying to tell me those millions who movedl moved for secualrism you must be dreaming! *
No, the same reason, "partition riots."
[/QUOTE]
Partition riots
YEs what partition Muslim and Hindu
By default pakistan was the muslim section and what where the people moving in that section for exactly to a state which they called the land of islam!
There was no secualrism the reason if you ask the generation who sacrificed there lives including my great grandparents was for islam not kufr secularism!
The call of secualrism had not even one iota of support from the muslims masses they had the blood of islam and they sacrificed for islam alone!
Muslims demanded seperate rule, Pakistan was created and built in the name of islam how you going to deny the facts of history is beyond me!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
There was no secualrism the reason if you ask the generation who sacrificed there lives including my great grandparents was for islam not kufr secularism!
[/QUOTE]
'Kufr Secularism' guarantees equal rights for every human regardless of his faith, caste or race. 'Kufr secularism' guarantees peace and harmony between people of different religions. The islamic utopia of which you people are dreaming, has never existed before and it will never exist.
See, what have they done to their own people in Afghanistan and what are they doing in KSA. Evil Zia also wanted to turn Pakistan into an islamic state. He enacted brutal islamic laws, such as, Blasphemy laws and Hudood ordinances, see how the women in Pakistan are still suffering immensely under these laws. He implemented limb amputations for theft, flogging for drinking alcohol and stonning for adultery, but due to some reasons stonning and amputation were being never executed. Is it sensible that a raped woman should be stonned to death if she cannot prove that she was raped.
Whiping a man before thousands of people in an open ground is inhumane, how much humility a man can bear. Is it what you like to impose on Pakistan? Is it what Islam has to offer?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
'Kufr Secularism' guarantees equal rights for every human regardless of his faith, caste or race. 'Kufr secularism' guarantees peace and harmony between people of different religions. The islamic utopia of which you people are dreaming, has never existed before and it will never exist.
Whiping a man before thousands of people in an open ground is inhumane, how much humility a man can bear. Is it what you like to impose on Pakistan? Is it what Islam has to offer?
[/QUOTE]
Kufr secualrism in both india and Pakistan is a disaster. IF you want to talk about facts open your eyes and look at the real world. What has secualrism done across the border in INdia have you seen this grand model of kufr secualrism mass rape, genocide of muslims is what has happened!
Secualrism does not guarntee anyone rights because the rich in pakistan have more rights than the poor. If you have the money you have the rights!
Why is it that people where forced at gunpoint in some instances to vote in this last secular election if it was that great tell me by the way how many people even bothers to vote and support this great secualr system?
As for islam never existed than 1400 years of islamic rule must have been a cloud of smoke if a system was that bad it lasted 1400 years. IF you ask the muslim world do they want islamic rule or kufr secularism its a no contest and you know it.
Capitalism and the rule of secularism has been around maybe 100 or 200 years we have had the 2 world wars, countless wars based on nationality and tribe (which are both promoted in secualrism), we have had the exploitation of africa, we have the exploitation of sub continent india, we have had the enslavement of the third world by the rich elite in the west. We have had the puppet dictators and royality forced on us by the British and Americas, who voted for these dictators and royalty certain not the muslim ummah!
So your model of secualrism has failed at every turn. Like i said before our forefathers sacrificed a lot for pakistan and they did it for islam not Secularism fact!
Your criticism on islam and specifically stoning an adulterer to death that is the law of islam, islam has a judicial proces if in doubt throw it out (i.e lack of evidence you cannot execute the punishment,) so your alleged example of a woman being stoned for being raped and not being able to proove it are not done according to islam, so you just basically slandering islam without find out what the islamic rule is on this subject.
As for whipping a man. you need to give example of why the man is being whipped i cannot give answer to hypothical question.
As for islamic state never existing again you cannot say that because allah(swt) knows best not you.
**
Kufr secualrism in both india and Pakistan is a disaster. IF you want to talk about facts open your eyes and look at the real world. What has secualrism done across the border in INdia have you seen this grand model of kufr secualrism mass rape, genocide of muslims is what has happened!
Secualrism does not guarntee anyone rights because the rich in pakistan have more rights than the poor. If you have the money you have the rights!
Why is it that people where forced at gunpoint in some instances to vote in this last secular election if it was that great tell me by the way how many people even bothers to vote and support this great secualr system?**
India is only a so-called secular country, you did choose a very bad example. What about Sweden, Germany, New Zealnd or Switzerland. As far as Pakistan is concerned who told you that Pakistan is a secular democratic country. Pakistan is an autocracy of worst form.
As for islam never existed than 1400 years of islamic rule must have been a cloud of smoke if a system was that bad it lasted 1400 years. IF you ask the muslim world do they want islamic rule or kufr secularism its a no contest and you know it.
From Ummayads to Abbasids and from Ottoman Turks to Moghuls, all were kingdoms, albeit muslim. They ruled the masses by their strict tribal codes and islamic laws.
Capitalism and the rule of secularism has been around maybe 100 or 200 years we have had the 2 world wars, countless wars based on nationality and tribe (which are both promoted in secualrism), we have had the exploitation of africa, we have the exploitation of sub continent india, we have had the enslavement of the third world by the rich elite in the west. We have had the puppet dictators and royality forced on us by the British and Americas, who voted for these dictators and royalty certain not the muslim ummah!
And you think that secularism caused all these events?
**Your criticism on islam and specifically stoning an adulterer to death that is the law of islam, islam has a judicial proces if in doubt throw it out (i.e lack of evidence you cannot execute the punishment,) so your alleged example of a woman being stoned for being raped and not being able to proove it are not done according to islam, so you just basically slandering islam without find out what the islamic rule is on this subject.
As for whipping a man. you need to give example of why the man is being whipped i cannot give answer to hypothical question.
As for islamic state never existing again you cannot say that because allah(swt) knows best not you. **
I think I am wasting my and your time by discussign this matter with you. Have a nice life.
Regards
Shawaiz
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by shawaiz: *
*
India is only a so-called secular country, you did choose a very bad example. What about Sweden, Germany, New Zealnd or Switzerland. As far as Pakistan is concerned who told you that Pakistan is a secular democratic country. Pakistan is an autocracy of worst form.
From Ummayads to Abbasids and from Ottoman Turks to Moghuls, all were kingdoms, albeit muslim. They ruled the masses by their strict tribal codes and islamic laws.
And you think that secularism caused all these events?
I think I am wasting my and your time by discussign this matter with you. Have a nice life.
Regards
Shawaiz
[/QUOTE]
New Zealand or Germany are not muslim populated countries. Pakistan is and the muslims reject secularism on mass.
Pakistan is secular unfortunatly if you care to take a look at its constitiuition.
Ummayads to abbasids to ottomans to moghuls all kingdoms, i see nice way of generalising 1400 years of history into 1 line. Regardless of this notion you have islam was the system that was implemented on the entire islamic state yes there where mistakes and problems but nothing compared to the disasters we have today as a result of man made systems.
Secualrism is a complete failure, you cannot even refute the examples i gave you of World War I & II, Gulf war I & II, Veitnam War, Korean War the list is endless and direct result of secularism which translates into man made laws.
If you cannot refute the arguements then i agree you are wasting your time.
Pakistan’s Constitution is not secular at al. It is theocratic. Read it yourself.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Secualrism is a complete failure, you cannot even refute the examples i gave you of World War I & II, Gulf war I & II, Veitnam War, Korean War the list is endless and direct result of secularism which translates into man made laws.
[/QUOTE]
And I will ask you again. Were all these events caused by secularism?
The Talibans ruled their country according to the laws of Sharia. And I know they did a lot harm to their country. Destroying the remnants of ones own civilization, stopping women form getting education, banning music and even sport, tell me is it all what islam has to offer. And KSA, where Sharia has been implemented long time ago, is another basket case.
I think you have missed the mark on secularism. For you secularism is equal agnosticism, whic is actually not the fact.
The secularism by no means prohibit the religion, it only seperates religion from the state affairs. The involvement of religion in the affairs of a state casuse "shia sunni fasadat". I have already given you the example of the Zia era, how his islamization damaged the pakistani society.
Shawaiz
The constitution of pakistan is secular there is no doubt about it. From the reality of everyday person living in pakistan to the actual wordings of the constitution it is clear the the system is secular.
I will refute your claim that the pakistans constitution is not secualr very easily by a simple analysis of the constitution.
When Pakistan's present (1973) constitution is examined, then it is found to be purely secular. The constitution does not deny the existence of the Creator. Nor does the constitution deny Islam. But the constitution does not make the Quran and Sunnah the source for its legislation. The Qu'ran or Sunnah has not been used to derive any of the 280 articles of the constitution.
Rather, these 280 articles are a consequence of human thinking and judgement alone, irrespective of any reference to the Quran and Sunnah. Consequently, man is the source of legislation and not the Quran and Sunnah. Indeed as stated in article 2 of the constitution, Islam is viewed not as a divine source of legislation but merely as "the state religion of Pakistan". This is no different from the view that many secular Western states have of the Christian religion. Other articles further confirm this secular view of Islam as a personal religion for its citizens; according to article 31(1) the state acts only as a facilitator for its citizens "to order their lives in accordance with the fundamental principles and basic concepts of Islam". Hence the state is not obliged to implement Islam but only to allow its citizens to practice Islam in their personal capacity if they so wish. Consequently the state is purely secular in its treatment of religion.
KSA implement shariah. really
Now i know you have no clue about what islam is. If KSA implement shariah then why have they got a royal family? If they implement shriah as you claim why have they provided bases for attacks on iraq because they implementing shriah according to you. I think you need to take a look at saudi constitution as well before you comment!
since you ignore the facts that the major wars where caused by secualrism. You talk about the great secular examples in the west is laughable!
Secularism's shortcoming is seen clearly in the homelands of secularism in the West; violence, discrimination and persecution upon Afro-Caribbeans, Hispanics, South Asians, Muslims, Jews and other minorities is so common that it is almost accepted as part of life.
In america recent examples show, the Muslim legal permanent residents of America are American citizens and the constitution gives them the same rights as the Christians, but in practice, the American authorities and people treat them as an enemy within.
Two of the most vicious enemies of the Muslims, India and Israel, are secular democracies wherein minorities have been persecuted regularly for over fifty years. The list of those minorities who possess horrific testimony of persecution is large and growing- Muslims of Kashmir, Ayodhya, Gujarat and Assam; Sikhs of Amritsar; Ethiopian and Arab Jews of Israel; Christians and Muslims of Israel; Untouchables throughout India.
Face it secularism is a failed system that no one with sense should implement.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Face it secularism is a failed system that no one with sense should implement.
[/QUOTE]
Fine. Then what is preventing you implementing the non-secular solution of your choice? Surely failed systems shouldn't be much of an obstacle if what you are saying is true?
ak-47 what do you want every country to be relgious entities relpace
their laws with religous laws?