Well, the same zealots have also tried to portray Jinnah as a very religious person. He wanted to see a prosperous Pakistan, not a Pakistan which is bickering over senseless things as whether we should say Wasalaam to non-Muslims, and crimes such as the persecution of minorities, which sadly has taken place in Pakistan's history. There are however, committed people that are still devoted to make Pakistan into a prosperous and tolerant state, so there is still hope.
Re: Jinnah: desire for a secular Pakistan?
"In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. "
A statement like this just goes on to show the quality of intellect that Jinnah possessed. The idea of theocracy is alien to Islam since it requires a semi-divine ruler capable of interpreting God's Will, similar to a roman-catholic pope.
We are witnessing a new phenomenon in which religious scholars (MMA??), who in the past (pre 1600's) considered power as a fearful thing, and even questioned the sanity of anyone who deliberately sought power, now openly indulge in politics.
Why don't you guys admit it, you do want to be called Muslims but do not want it followed and implemented.
we do not want it followed and implemented as per someone else's definition of it.
and given that Pakistan houses a diverse bunch of people, its very likely that your version of it would conflict with someone else's. given that we will never establish a 'true' version, your proposition sounds like imposition of Islam rather than practice of it.
So what is the true version according to you? Islam says that there be justice. Who can question that? So you love the present justice system? I pray you end up in a Pakistani court some day and realize what it is like.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
So what is the true version according to you? Islam says that there be justice. Who can question that? So you love the present justice system? I pray you end up in a Pakistani court some day and realize what it is like.
[/QUOTE]
my remarks werent specific to the justice system. they were more along the lines of a morality police imposing a strict version of the religion that does not represent that people's understanding and faith in it.
as for the pakistani justice system, I do not find it worse than the Taliban justice system for example. Yes it has its weaknesses that should be addressed, but I for one will not trade it for that of erstwhile Afghanistan OR present day saudi arabia.
The religious police is not a legal requirement under Islamic law as far as i know. That is open for debate and I am not talking about that. However the Islamic laws of Hadd and qisas are to be implemented if we want to be Muslims. Otherwise the Quran declares us kafirs. I can quote the ayat if you want.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
The religious police is not a legal requirement under Islamic law as far as i know. That is open for debate and I am not talking about that. However the Islamic laws of Hadd and qisas are to be implemented if we want to be Muslims. Otherwise the Quran declares us kafirs. I can quote the ayat if you want.
[/QUOTE]
do quote the ayat please.
Allah :swt:the Exalted says:
“That is because they hate that which Allâh has sent down (this Qur’ân and Islâmic laws, etc.), so He has made their deeds fruitless.” [47:9]
==============================================
Judging by other than what Allah has revealed on the assumption that the rule of Islam is unfit or non-Islamic rule is permissible. Allah :swt: the Exalted says:
“…And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh’s Laws).” [5:44]
.
firstly, the brackets are of your own addition. secondly the reason I asked you to quote the ayat was because I believe in the Quran, completely. Please do not suggest otherwise.
the second ayat seems to be talking about a person, whosoever. Are you sure thats in the context of judicial courts? It seems to me to be exhorting a person to exercise Islamic injunctions when using his judgement in day to day affairs.
I do not see any mention of hudood and qisas laws.
my personal opinion traces back to a speech by Muntazir Abbas some years ago. He said that Islam is not a guidebook, its a scale. We should not expect to find direct injunctions about every single thing in our books, but we should be able to take anything, any rule, and see based on the principles laid out in the Quran and by the Prophet, if they're Islamic or not.
The brackets are not my own addition. They were from the translation of the Quran done by great scholars who have good knowledge. “Whosoever” does include the Islamic judicial system. How can you say it excludes the courts.
Ok …than as you said, than this means that as Quran ordains that a fornicator and a fornicatress is to be given 100 lashes. (In surah Noor ..read it yourself…) . So would you or I myslef would give the 100 lashes? Since you do not believe in the implemetation of Islamic laws through state, therefore you or I or any other who reads the quran should give these punishments set by Allah :swt: the all-knowing, all-wise?
My brother, it is clear and well known fact that the 100 lashes are the responsibility of the state after a trial and after implementation of proper Shariah law (4 witnesses who saw him in the act).
So there is no use denying the fact that establishment of an Islamic state with Islamic laws is our duty. You cannot run from it. You are an educated person, and you can clearly understand what the Quran says. Its quite easy to understand. If you want to deny it on purpose than may Allah guide us all.
Again:
**“…And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh’s Laws).” [5:44] **
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
my personal opinion traces back to a speech by Muntazir Abbas some years ago. He said that Islam is not a guidebook, its a scale. We should not expect to find direct injunctions about every single thing in our books, but we should be able to take anything, any rule, and see based on the principles laid out in the Quran and by the Prophet, if they're Islamic or not.
[/QUOTE]
Who is Muntazir Abbas? He gave an opinion. You are following his opinion more than what Quran clearly says.
Muntazir Abbas is a scholar, as are the ones who did the translation you refer to.
On certain points Quran is explicit, and these matters should be incorporated into our legal system. But on a vast majority of things, the present day "Islamic" legal system is not based on direct injunctions from the Quran/Sunnah but on interpretations of the Quran/Sunnah by the scholars.. and most of these interpretations are dated around 1000 AD, give or take a couple of centuries.
Specifically these dont necessarily need to be catered to, piecemeal. The ones explicitly mentioned, and agreed upon, should be incorporated tho.
^ ^Don't argue like this...It's not looking sane...Quran is & always would be the Supreme Power in the Islamic System...Each & every word of it ,is dear to us(As it is the only right path)...Islamabad is right here...you can't put anything above the supreme law(i.e quran)...No Muntazir Abbas or else stands correct,what Quran has already said...
Reagrding this statement, please differentiate between Muntazar abbas a creation of Allah and the Quran’s direct translation. There is a huge difference between what the words of Allah are and what an ordinary person says -be it a translator or a scholar.
However, we agree here.
I will try to quote the Quranic Ayat that pretty much form the framework of the Islamic Legal system. One thing i would like to clear here that the Islamic laws are clear as told in quran and sunnah. The interpretation done by scholars is about the methodology of their implemetation. Nobody can disagree (and has no right to disagree as a Muslim) about the Quranic text and Prophet:saw: example, which is very clear. So if we implement those clear injuctions, we actually do away with almost all secular laws. Thus comes into formation an Islamic order that guarantees justice, equality,** Peace** and most importantly Allah’s happiness.