"It’s a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad..." - HRW

So says Human Rights Watch, about the killings of Iraqi civilians by US occupation forces since 1 May, in Baghad…

Iraq: Civilian Deaths Need U.S. Investigation

The U.S. military is failing to conduct proper investigations into civilian deaths resulting from the excessive or indiscriminate use of force in Baghdad, Human Rights Watch charged in a new report released today. The 56-page report, Hearts and Minds: Post-War Civilian Casualties in Baghdad by U.S. Forces, confirms twenty deaths in the Iraqi capital alone between May 1 and September 30. In total, Human Rights Watch collected credible reports of 94 civilian deaths in Baghdad, involving questionable legal circumstances that warrant investigation. This number does not include civilians wounded by U.S. troops. The precise number of Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. soldiers since the end of major military operations is unknown, and the U.S. military told Human Rights Watch that it keeps no statistics on civilian deaths.

“It’s a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad,” said Joe Stork, acting executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “But it’s really incredible that the U.S. military does not even count these deaths. Any time U.S. forces kill an Iraqi civilian in questionable circumstances, they should investigate the incident.” Thus far, the military says it has concluded only five investigations above the division level, ordered by the deputy commanding general, into alleged unlawful deaths. Of these, soldiers were found to have operated “within the rules of engagement” in four cases. In the fifth case, a helicopter pilot and his commander face disciplinary action for trying to tear down a Shi`a banner in Sadr City in Baghdad, an incident that provoked a violent clash with demonstrators on August 13. Human Rights Watch conducted its own investigation of two of these five cases, and found evidence to suggest that soldiers had used excessive force, including shooting a person who had his hands in the air and beating a detainee. In some cases, U.S. forces faced a real threat, which gave them the right to respond with force. But that response was sometimes disproportionate or indiscriminate, harming civilians or putting them at risk.

The cases we documented in this report reveal a pattern of over-aggressive tactics, excessive shooting in residential areas and hasty reliance on lethal force,” Stork said. In compiling its report, Human Rights Watch conducted more than 60 interviews and gathered information from five sources: Iraqi witnesses and family members of victims, police records from all the police stations in Baghdad, local and international human rights groups, media accounts, and the U.S. military. The Human Rights Watch report categorizes civilian deaths in Baghdad since May 1 in three basic groups: during raids, at checkpoints, and after ambushes on convoys. In all three circumstances, soldiers often quickly resorted to the use of lethal force. Their fire was not always directed at the intended target, or proportionate to the threat. Iraq is clearly a hostile environment for U.S. troops,” said Stork. “But that does not absolve the military from its legal obligations to use force in a restrained and proportionate manner – and only when necessary.” Part of the problem is the deployment of combat troops, such as the 82nd Airborne Division and the 1st Armored Division, for essentially law enforcement tasks. Many of these soldiers fought their way into Iraq and were then asked to switch from acting as warriors to serving as policemen who must control crowds, pursue thieves and root out insurgents. For these policing tasks they are not properly trained, equipped or psychologically prepared.

In some cases, U.S. soldiers have behaved with unnecessary rudeness toward Iraqi civilians. Human Rights Watch strongly recommended that U.S. forces desist from the practice of putting their feet on the heads of Iraqis whom they have detained face-down on the ground. In Iraqi culture, the use of feet against another person is highly insulting and offensive. .S. military officials told Human Rights Watch they were providing extra training for U.S. forces. Human Rights Watch researchers met many U.S. military personnel who dealt respectfully with Iraqis and were working hard to train Iraqi police, guard facilities and pursue criminals. Some of these soldiers expressed frustration at the behavior of their colleagues. It takes a while to get the Rambo stuff out,” one officer told Human Rights Watch. In the meantime, the lack of timely and high-level investigations into many questionable incidents has created an atmosphere of impunity. Soldiers must know they will be held accountable for the improper use of force,” Stork said. “Right now, soldiers feel they can pull the trigger without coming under review.” The Human Rights Watch report proposed concrete ways to reduce civilian deaths in Iraq. Checkpoints should be better marked with signs in Arabic and lights, and interpreters should accompany all raids. The military’s rules of engagement are not made public due to security concerns, but Iraqi civilians have a right to know how they are expected to behave at checkpoints and during raids. Coalition forces should make such information available through the local media, Human Rights Watch urged. ost importantly, U.S. military authorities should investigate all credible allegations of unlawful killings by coalition soldiers, and punish soldiers and commanders found to have used or tolerated the use of excessive or indiscriminate force.

This is the t-shirt of an eight year old girl, victim of “collateral damage”, who died thanks to the volley of bullets fired at her and her family by American soldiers - her father, brother, and one of her sisters all passed away.

[thumb=D]_39479216_mirvat_shirt203.JPG[/thumb]

Case study: Iraqi civilian deaths, BBC, Martin Asser, 15 October 2003

>>“…the U.S. military told Human Rights Watch that it keeps no statistics on civilian deaths.”<<
When it comes to the issue of Kurds, the HRW becomes everyone’s favourite source. But now, when it is directly criticizing the US government’s approach towards the issue of civilian deaths - everyone seems to become conveniently quiet. If it was Saddam Hussein’s men gunning down families @ checkpoints, firing bullets into eight year old girls, then we would all be furiously indignant. If those pulling the trigger on eight year old children, happen to be American soldiers, then everything seems to be swept under the rug and hushed up. Although it is amazingly tragic, only a fool would find the sheer hypocrisy the slightest bit surprising.

This is truly awful.

When 9/11 happened I was shocked and repulsed by the brutal aggression that was unleashed on the USA people and supported their incursion into Afghanistan in order to retaliate against the perpetrators fully.

Last night I saw an hour long documentary about what's happening in Iraq. An USA team did the documentary.

They started off by showing what Hussein did to his people. Appalling what he did - good riddance of the man. They showed/interviewed several people that is thankful to USA overthrew Hussein.

They also showed various clips/interviews of USA soldiers and also the present people in charge of administration in Iraq. Some points:

  1. An USA officer interrogating a man in hospital (all bandaged up and in bad condition). The officer tells him through an interpreter that the USA has good doctors and they can save his live if he co-operate, if he does not, then he can die without their help. I thought once a person is captured or in the hands of his enemies he can rely on them to treat him humanely. Obviously not if the captors is USA.

  2. USA soldiers kill a man who attended a demonstration for money by previous soldiers of Iraq. The USA statement was that there were guns and fire from the crowd. A Major from the medical corps that was a witness say that there were no guns and no fire from the crowd before the USA started to shoot. He states that some soldier might have felt threatened and panicked. No investigation done after 3 weeks.

  3. Innocent bystanders killed by USA soldiers who opened fire because they felt threatened (including some children).

  4. A 21-year-old USA soldier states that the people higher up have no idea about the suffering of the common people. He states that the people in control lost contact with what is happening on the ground level. He wants to get out and go and study.

  5. They showed clips of how Iraqi’s are treated without respect of person or belongings and have an interview with the top UN spokesperson (killed recently) stating that it is unacceptable that the USA does not treat the people and their religion with more respect.

  6. They interviewed the USA person in charge of Iraq. He remains defiant: treatment not those bad, never any wrong-doings by military, USA always correct.

I start to realise that an Iraq under the USA changed very little for the good for the innocent person living in Iraq. I realise that there will not be any positive solution till the superior-minded USA people in charge get the boot. I realise that I start to feel nothing for any USA soldier/administrator being killed. I realise that we also have this selfsame thick-skinned, smug, never-see-anything-wrong people here at Gupshup. I realise that I start to feel less sorrow for what happened on 9/11……

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *
....
I start to realise that an Iraq under the USA changed very little for the good for the innocent person living in Iraq. I realise that there will not be any positive solution till the superior-minded USA people in charge get the boot. I realise that I start to feel nothing for any USA soldier/administrator being killed. I realise that we also have this selfsame thick-skinned, smug, never-see-anything-wrong people here at Gupshup. I realise that I start to feel less sorrow for what happened on 9/11……
[/QUOTE]

Come on... you must have been a US-hater all along and now you are just "revealing" your true identity.. How could anyone pass the bridge? Nay... you were US hater like many of us all along.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Come on... you must have been a US-hater all along and now you are just "revealing" your true identity.. How could anyone pass the bridge? Nay... you were US hater like many of us all along.
[/QUOTE]

US hater? - No!

On 02 November 2001 I saw a documentary of the 9/11 issue and wrote because of it in my diary:

"I believe the USA has the full right to throw three nukes - one on Kabul to destroy the Taleban completely, one on Kandahar (the religious headquarters of the Taleban), and one where they think Osama Bin Laden is hiding."

Now, tell me again I’ve always been a USA hater......

What the USA did in Iraq under the pretence of getting rid of Hussein and helping the people (while the real issues were oil and Israel), I believe then and now to be wrong. On this issue I am against the Blair as well (Blair because there was a strong voice in Britain to not go to war). It is stupid to blindly follow leaders (as some people on Gupshup do on issues like Iraq, Palestine, etc.). Due to the history we had in South Africa, I have learned that politicians are the worst kind of people on this earth (sorry CM!). The USA has done some very good things for this world but also some horrible things. We need to be able to differentiate between the good and the bad. While the Soviet Union existed, the USA was the country that free western countries rallied behind. Now there is no one that can keep the USA in check, and it has become the bully of the world. The only fortunate thing is that every empire/dynasty comes to a fall. Whether you believe it or not, it will also happen to the USA.

As a parable consider a town in the old Wild West format with a major crime problem who then appoint a hard-nosed Marshall. In time he rids the town of the wrong element and the town is safe for the normal citizens. But being the type of man he is, the Marshall continue to become more strict in controlling the town as if he is the lord and master until HE is the stumbling block that the townsmen battle to be rid off.

In South Africa we had thousands of young black men leaving the country to be trained in so-called guerrilla camps to overthrow the Apartheid government. Once there was a political change of rule, they all came back. They were not taught in the guerrilla camps any skills that they could use and became the backbone of the violent crime that today cripples South Africa.

During the Apartheid era non-white people were advised and threatened to not pay their rent and tax. Today municipalities still struggle to convince these people to start paying. Most municipalities in South Africa are bankrupt because of non-payment.

Anyway, I believe that if Bush lose the Presidency, the USA will be out of Iraq within 6 months.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by The Old Man:

The USA has done some very good things for this world but also some horrible things. We need to be able to differentiate between the good and the bad. While the Soviet Union existed, the USA was the country that free western countries rallied behind. Now there is no one that can keep the USA in check, and it has become the bully of the world. The only fortunate thing is that every empire/dynasty comes to a fall. Whether you believe it or not, it will also happen to the USA.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed that is all true. America and it's people are and always will be amongst the greatest, and they have given the world so much, which I think people should acknowledge.

But now the great power and potential of America is being misused on a grand scale by a small clique of people in DC, which has resulted in the slaughter of thousands of inncocent civilians not just in Afghanistan, but also in Iraq and other places, in numbers far exceeding those who were murdered by the terrorists on 9/11. As the HRW report states “Right now, soldiers feel they can pull the trigger without coming under review.” This sort of thing and the resultant butchering of Iraqi civilians cannot be allowed to go unchecked and unpunished, for if it is it will be repeated in place after place, until the present regime in DC is thrown out.

P.S. I think Changez_like was being sarcastic? :)

*“It’s a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad,” *

I guess the United States has chosen to ignore these charges?

Guess so, they're far too busy morning the loss of their own numerous incompetents.

They kill civilians, it's all part of a days work. Rebels fight back at the illegal occupiers and rummy's in tears.

What a bunch of absolute wimps.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chota: *
Guess so, they're far too busy morning the loss of their own numerous incompetents.

They kill civilians, it's all part of a days work. Rebels fight back at the illegal occupiers and rummy's in tears.

What a bunch of absolute wimps.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Over 9000 Iraqi civilians, including little children and babies have been killed by the US military's "shock and awe" campaign, which so many American's have supported.

Almost one year later and analysts have reported more than 100,000 civilian deaths since the start of Bush’s occupation of Iraq.

Civilian death toll in Iraq exceeds 100,000](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/24by7panews/tm_objectid=14809252%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=civilian-death-toll-in-iraq-exceeds-100-000-name_page.html) The Mirror, Uk 28 Oct 04

“Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq,” said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal. “The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children,” Roberts told Reuters. ..