ISLAM & SCIENTIFIC THEORIES,.....

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Kumar,
First of all,…if you have opened mind then,..I can give you one simple lesson,…
encyclopedia,..are written by Human beings,…who change themselves everytime they contradict their own theories.QURAN is not a human reasearch,..but Messages from God as collected by our prophet.The creator of this universe (God),whenever gave anything or wanted humans to know…doesn’t need certification from any scientific authority…
Now,..next point,…for last 1400 plus years,..christians,jews and other people tried their best to find in-consistancies and
prove to the world that QURAN doesn’t support their so-calloed scientific theories.They used science to prove it wrong,..But ended up accepting the truth…
Now,..whether you like or not,..as I said before,..This is a book for all mankind,…read it and prove it wrong,…

Using science as a tool to measure the level of truthfulness is just like,…** Using Bike to go to Mars**…All those mentioned facts in my first post were checked by Non-Muslims,…None of them was Muslim…
Therefore,…find anything in QURAN which you can prove wrong,..then,..I shall remove my post,…Just copying from JOURNALS and running around doesn’t help.These JOURNALS are humans theories,…which are changing more than I change my socks,…But fact remains the same,…Holy Books,..QURAN,BIBLE,TORAH have onething in common,..which is very hard for some to contradict..

Now get over it,…You are using a Water PITCHER to cross the OCEANS,…
I am opened minded muslim,…but when we have a factual truth,…then very hard to deny it,…

I have access to hundred of JOURNALS,..and dcience books,…may be more than you.But thoes are being changed everytime,..someone comes up with new theory,…

BTW,…Keep doing research,…It will help a lot of people here too,…also mention the scientific book,…which you use as reference…Thanx

22

Tariq:
Permit me to repeat the same question I asked in my previous post.

** 1. if you think Science is limited to substantiate Quran, why did you use Science to substantiate Quran in the first place? If you think, we, believers of Human science/research are close minded, why did you try to substantiate Quran with Science? **

2.And only TariQ, You and other Muslims belive that Quran is God given. It is once again a belief and not a substantiated fact. Where does science comes in this picture?

** * SUMMARY:
So, in essence, from your OWN explanations on your follow up posts, if we use today's science, Quran is NOT scientific.

AND You believe that may be, someday, quran will become scientific, based on that day's science! * **

23

And I am not trying to defane Bible or Torah or Quran here. I am just commenting on your attempt to use science to substantiate these books.

Also, on a side note, I think you should include the 4 vedas, Gita, The Granth Sahib and all the religous texts of all the religions of the world, when you say, they are god given.

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited June 19, 2001).]

24

Kumar,
as you have posted,**"And I am not trying to defane Bible or Torah or Quran here. I am just commenting on your attempt to use
science to substantiate these books.

           Also, on a side note, I think you should include the 4 vedas, Gita, The Granth Sahib and all the religous texts of
           all the religions of the world, when you say, they are god given."**

I think I must tell you,..As QURAN for muslims,..BIBLE for christians,..TORAH for Jews,..these are the well known relgions.Now, about Your Books,..I have great respect,..But I never even heard about them before.Even I don't know,..on whom those were revealed.
But its good to know about them. In ourReligion we are told and have in QURAN ,..never say anything about other relgions which you don't know,..therefore,..I can't pass my judgment on any of the religion.
Therefore,..I can discuss about relgions about whom I know,...
This post was never meant to hurt anybody,....but since you made it that way,..All I can tell you is,....read the QURAN,..and then find in-consistancies,..if you can.Don't compare JOURNALS or anything with it.
All Holy Books (QURAN,BIBLE,TORAH,ZABOOR) we know,..point to same theory and same facts mentioned in QURAN.These books are the revealtions to Prophets..That's why,..We Muslims and christians and jews have same belief but on certain details we differ.But Factually all the books are correct and there for everyone to read and research....

But keep in mind,..these books are dealing with spirtuality too,..for which no one can explain,..but facts are there.predictions,sprituality and other factors are there to understand too.
Therefore,don't worry,..we have ample time for discussions and facts and researches,...

[This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited June 19, 2001).]

25

So, you don't know Hinduism! or Sikhism!! or Buddhism!!! Just because you don't know them doesn't make these religions anyway inferior!

Quran is as much god given as Gita or Granth Sahib or Every other relgious texts of the world. Period!

Coming back to the topic, So you do accept my other points in my previous posts?

(And please don't call me by name Kumar. My name is kumarakn)

26

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**So, you don't know Hinduism! or Sikhism!! or Buddhism!!! Just because you don't know them doesn't make these religions anyway inferior!

Quran is as much god given as Gita or Granth Sahib or Every other relgious texts of the world. Period!

Coming back to the topic, So you do accept my other points in my previous posts?

(And please don't call me by name Kumar. My name is kumarakn)
**
[/quote]

kumarakn,
Don't flatter and prasie yourself,..I am not done with you yet,..don't worry,..I shall go to any lenght to discuss it,.....I didn't say that your religion is inferior,...may be you didn't read carefully my response,.....Read it again,..and think,...
As I wrote,..."In ourReligion we are told and have in QURAN ,..never say anything about
other relgions which you don't know,..therefore,..I can't pass my judgment on any of the religion."...now you tell me where i said your relgion is inferior,....
Before writing responses,..make sure your facts are correct.
Wait for my another,..response,..will be coming from BIBLE,.....which is proved and wrote by non-muslims,....just read those,...with open mind.
BTW,...don't write my Tariq,.....write my whole ID,......TARIQ786USA

Kapeesh.

[This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited June 19, 2001).]

27

Now here are the facts from BIBLE,......read it and try your best to deny it too,..This is not taken from any Muslim site,...but taken from the chrsitians BIBLE,.....try this for a change too.
Its not about books which is old or which is which,..it is about book which gives facts and challnges to human kind to prove those facts wrong if they can do it with their limited intelligence,....read it and answer it too,....

LOOK AT SUN:

                Every square-yard of it radiates 130,000 HorsePower of energy.The equivalent of 45 eight-cylinder
                engines.Yet it's only one of a hundred billion planets on the Milky Way.
                And if one of them move 2 degrees without GOD's permission, it will mean catastrophe for us all.

               ** LOOK AT EARTH:**

                Weighing about more than Six Trillion tons,and tilted exactly 23 degrees--just right! Even one degree off,
                and the seasons as we know them would disappear,and we'd all drown in colossal polar-meltdown.

                We are a passenger on an "Earth-Ship" that has been travelling faster than the speed of sound for
                thousands of years,without once breaking down,blowing up,or tumbling out of orbit. Think of the
                intelligence that put it all together.

                The more we know about GOD's Celestial workshop,our concept of him grows and our faith in him
                increases.
28

First of all let me share my regrets for assuming that you thought Hinduism or Buddhism or Sikhism to be inferior. Yes, your ignorance of these religions doesn't mean you rate them inferior.

I looked at Sun and I looked at Earth, I don't see any proof to scientifically accept that it is Jesus or allah who is doing it.

But Still, I have faith that it is Jesus or Allah who is doing it. (A hindu will believe it to be Shiva or Vishnu, Buddhists buddha and africano religions, "The light of Wakan Tanka") But that is faith. You started the thread by trying to say that Quran is very Scientific - Which you haven't proved as of yet!

Here, I am NOT questioning the authenticity of Allah or Jesus or Shiva or Vishnu or Buddha or WakanTanka. I am questioning your proclamation that Quran's science is very advanced!

Now let me conclude, you began the thread by saying Islam is scientific and tried to prove that using science. When I pointed out science does not give any credibility to Islam, and challenged your comments, you say current day's science is handicapped from explaining the beliefs of Islam. Then, how can Islam be scientific based on current day's science, if it is handicapped from proving your statements?"

SUMMARY:
In essence, from your OWN explanations on your follow up posts, if we use today's science, Quran is NOT scientific.

AND You believe that may be someday, quran will become scientific, based on that day's science! (this is your hope!) (In other words, you believe, read hope, that Science will someday mature enough to substantiate all your comments and prove you right.)
**
*

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited June 19, 2001).]

29

still waiting on a credible reference to your “A french mariner” story

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

  • not to mention, other explanations as well.

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited June 19, 2001).]

30

The relationship between the Qur'aan and science is a priori a surprise,especially when it turns out to be one of harmony and not of discord. A confrontation between a religious book and the secular ideas proclaimed by science is perhaps, in the eye of many people today, something of a paradox.

The majority of todays scientists , with a small number of exceptions of course, are indeed bound up in materialist theories, and have only indifference or contempt for religious questions which they often consider to be founded on legend.

The totally erroneous statements made about Islam in the West are sometimes the result of ignorance and sometimes of systemmatic denigration. The most serious of all the untruths told about it are however those dealing with the FACTS. For while mistaken opinions are excusable, the presentation of facts running contrary to the reality is NOT.

Following the Renaissance, the scientists natural reaction was to take vengeance on their former enemies. This vengeance still continues today, to such an extent indeed that in the West, anyone who talks of God in scientific circles, really does stand out.

Science is changing with the times and a fact accepted today may be rejected later.

A distinction must be drawn between scientific theory and duly controlled observed fact.Theory is intended to explain a phenomenon or a series of phenomena not readily understandable. In many instances theory changes. It is liable to be modified or replaced by another theory when scientific progress makes it easier to analyse facts and invisage a more viable explanation. On the other hand, an observed fact checked by experimentation is not liable to modification. It becomes easier to define its characteristics, but it remains the same. It has been established that the Earth revolves around the Sun and the Moon around the Earth, and this fact will not be subject to revision. All that may be done in the future is to define the orbits more clearly.

31

I am still not even 100% sure,.but even more than that,...science is being matured as the time goes by,...Science doesn't explain all facts when it comes down to details,..
Christianity,..Juddhism,..and Muslims religion are started like thousands of years,..the books which were revealed to the prophets at that time still hold the keys to universe and its myths. No matter we have space technology or far more than this,..still science doesn't explains and covers the whole truth...
You are right,....SCIENCE IS HANDICAPPED,...these Holy books didn't just appeared from no where,...but for reasons and to prove there is God,the creator of this earth and the whole Universe...God explained to all human kind including anyone who lives and understand it,..that what is the depth of these myths and how everything was created.
In HINDUISM or other religions,..I don't know how they believe and what explainations they have.
Where is Sceince is concerned,..it is not the tool to measure the faith or any other things.
Science as we know it,....is still being changed and coming up with new Idea's.
Our Holy Book,..QURAN...Does give more detail informations to everyone who reads it,.....Now this is your Home assignment to read and prove all that As I mentioned in my thread....
First do that,...you will get your answers from there....You won't need me to give you an prep session on it......
That was the Challenge to all who can prove it wrong,......if they can.....Do it,..for now,..I shall be here and waiting to discuss your more questions,...You will find me here all the time,...I love to discuss with anyone,.....atleast getting reason to do more research,.........

32

It is now you guys are talking crap and avoiding my question.

  • "If science is handicapped to explain Quran, why did you guys try to convince us that science supports Quran? " *

So, I conclude, as on today, *"QURAN IS NOT SCIENTIFIC. SCIENCE AND QURAN DO NOT GO TOGETHER" * - That is all! ** Case closed!! **

33

The most compatible of all Scriptures in line with any Science is the Qur'aan.

This is a fact. Not fiction.

In order to confirm this, please compare all scriptures to Science, one by one!

34

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**It is now you guys are talking crap and avoiding my question.

  • "If science is handicapped to explain Quran, why did you guys try to convince us that science supports Quran? " *

So, I conclude, as on today, *"QURAN IS NOT SCIENTIFIC. SCIENCE AND QURAN DO NOT GO TOGETHER" * - That is all! ** Case closed!! **
**
[/quote]

Listen to me very carefully,....the word crap etc,....you just used,....becareful with these flowery phrases...I am trying my best to keep everything within limit.You must be careful using any word to any member that way.I know your frustartion,..AS I said,...Go Home and do some research,..and prove everything wrong,...I gave you quotes from QURAN and BIBLE,.....if you have any problem,..then we can't help you.Nor we are here to convince you or anything,....That Posted message here stands correct and will be correct.....We don't need your opinion or anything,....
This relgious issue is very sensitive one,..that's why,..I try my best not to make any confrontation here....
As I was reading,....about,...Status of The Sudras

Excerpts From:** Hinduism and Islam A Comparative Study**

The Sudra has a precarious position in Hindu community. According to Manu Smrithi, a Brahman is forbidden to give advice or even food to a Sudra, for the ghi (clarified butter) having been offered to the gods, must not be eaten by him. Further, the Brahman must not give 'spiritual counsel to him,' nor inform him of the legal expiation of his sin. He who declares the law to a servile man, and he who instructs him in the mode of expiating sin, sinks with that very man into hell.

A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites 1 ].

A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces." 2 ]

A Sudra is debarred from marrying a woman of the higher castes; if he does, their offspring will sink into a class even lower than his own. He must not participate in carrying the corpse of a Brahman. He is allowed to carry his dead only through the southern gate of the city where he may live. The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow 3 ].

In fact, the Sudras who have only deprivations and sufferings in their lots, are not Hindus. As Wilkins suggests, "the Sudras were not originally part of the Hindu system, but were engrafted into it..." 4 ] Still worse than the Sudras are the Dalits (also called Untouchables) who fall outside the caste system and are therefore the worst in the social hierarchy.

References

[1] Wilkins, Modern Hinduism, London, 1975, pp. 247-48.
[2] Swami Dharma Theertha, History of Hindu Imperialism, Madras, 1992, p. 42.
[3] Wilkins, 1975, p.248.
[4] Ibid., p. 255.

As I said,..i shall go to any length to discuss any thing about islam,....But with decent and respectable way,..

I am not one of those who think others as inferior,.....for all and everyone is the same,.....we must discuss everything to see how much and why we differ....That was my intention all along....But you started getting too hyper,...cool down,..then you will get all answers,..I shall give you the reference and the name of refernce book to read,.....I am not backing off from my thread or any thing mentioned here by me,...
Just wait,..you will get it,..I am very close to give it to everyone here,...

35

In the meantime,…just read this matreial,…here is the site to go to,…
http://www.submission.org/Q-science.html

36

And you thought that can prove the scientific nature of Quran by highlighting the discrimination against Sudras of Hinduism?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

Nice try!

** Prove to me using science that your claims the Quran is scientif is true. Is that too difficult? **

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

Sorry for the word crap, but you guys are talking everything else other than answering my question.

If science is incapable of subtantiating the scientific nature of Quran, why did you use scince to substantiate quran as scientific?

I can say a million things like that. For starters, Vedas explain why Quran came to the world. To understand how this is true, you have to be open minded (whatever that means.)

Bible says Quran is only for buddhists and not for muslims. To substantiate this, buddhism has to grow. ← If such talk is not crap, then you use a better name.

To make a cliam, A.Q.Khan can do it. You need to prove something to substantiate your claims.

Again let me ask for one last time…

** If you say science is incapable of subtantiating the scientific nature of Quran, why did you use science to substantiate quran as scientific? **

37

SUDRAS:
I was reading that alongwith refernce which are given too,..go and check those,…don’t expect me to do it for you.I posted the reference there for you,..I knew you gonna question about it too.
Well that has nothing to do,…with our current discusion,…
About Science and Quran:
All those mentioned facts are 100% true and were checked by Non-muslims,…Since I have given you the sites which explain more in detail than you can expect,..Go to Dr. Maurice Bucaille site and check it yourself,…If now you try to deny it too,..then I can’t help you,..cause,…You neede a site not created or written by any MULLAH,…Dr. Maurice Bucaille is not a mullah,…he mentioned very scientifically and comprehensive way for all those who have an urge to seek the truth and knowledge can read it and make their own decisions,…

Science with limited success is still far behind from full grasp of the whole truth,..as mentioned and given in BIBLE and QURAN…
Let me tell you one christian psychology,…
before the preach or argu with anyone about relgion the try their best to find the loop-hole in that religion and then they use those loop-holes as tool to convince others with their views religion,…Chrsitians tried their best to find the in-consistancies in our holy book and other stuff,..but couldn’t,…they even didn’t believe the facts mentioned in QURAN,..can be turned out true,..They proved for us what we muslims should have done,…

here in New York,…In the company, I work at,..I have One christian who is well knowledged about BIBLE and QURAN,…we sometime have arguments to convince eachother about the facts and interpretations,…Which helped me a lot to study their BIBLE too,..he is the main source of My reference for BIBLE’s questions and discussion…I shall be getting BIBLICAL sites which support sameway like QURAN the scientific truth about our books.

Just hold tight,..I shall give you as many refence which you even won’t be able to handle,…I shall go to any length to discuss it with you,…Don’t worry.

38

Who cares about Sudras or Maurice the clown? All I am asking is an geographic reference to the site where you cliam that a miraculous phenomenon is happening!

Untl then I have evry right to believe Maurice to be a clown.

39

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Who cares about Sudras or Maurice the clown? All I am asking is an geographic reference to the site where you cliam that a miraculous phenomenon is happening!

Untl then I have evry right to believe Maurice to be a clown.**
[/quote]

I was under the impression that you gonna be reasonable person to discuss anything about relgiob,...but your manners and sarcastic way,..is main reason,..I am not gonna discuss with you,...Anybody who says the right thing and with facts and truth,..for you he is clown,...Dr maurice,....was not a Mullah,..he had authority and ways to verify,..which you can't comprehend now,....You message response are not welcome here,..I don't wanna discuss topics with kids who have no temper or patience.You asked me the site,..I gave you ,..now that person is clown for you,..because you can't deny him,.....This is an excellent exapmle of the worst judgment by you...Now I know,..what level of discussion you can have.
** As I told you, I shall go to any length to discuss everything,..**....since you are scared from the truth,..now you are leaning towards sarcasim,....

AGAIN,...YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN THIS THREAD,..OR TO REPLY ANYTHING.
WHAT RIGHT YOU HAVE OR NOT,.I DON'T CARE,..
AS here in USA we say,..when you run out of facts then start sarcastic words amd make the discussion,...pointless,..since you can't play this kind game with me,...Get your acts together,...and learn how to behave,...I shall be posting for everyone here all the fatcs in future with sites and book references,.....My purpose here is to educate all Muslims here with right tool,....to counter mis-understanding and propoganda by others......

40

Sigh! You are yet to me a reference on the geogrphic phenomenon you claim.

Mods, you may close this thread if you would like. This guy cannot give me a refernce and I can’t stop asking it. It is going in circles

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif