most if not all other religions have used some sort of "interpretation" to attack and suppress others.
Thus one can say no religion is a peaceful.
or more properly, no religion can prevent from being misinterpreted for violence.
Fraudia
Muslims have the right to defend themselves against naked agression.
Yes, when Iraq invaded Kuwait it was permissable in my opinion for Kuwait to seek help from it's Muslim brethren. Not to attack Iraq but deal with Saddam. But instead they asked America for help in return for an 'eternal debt'! Even then the job was stereotypically half finished in line with U.S policy and historic trait, otherwise we wouldn't be in the position we are in now.
Now the shoes on the other foot, it seems as though a blind eye is being turned.
If Saddam is the culprit, then why is the whole country being penalised?
Only time will tell.
And Anand, please come up with something different or at least new regarding Islam. I've been hearing your anti this and anti that views for a number of years now!
Sholay mah man..
no one came to the rescue of bosnian muslims being butchered by the serbs. If it were nto for uS many ppl I know here would nto be alive today.
and yes, innocent people got hurt there too who had nothing to do with serb atrocities but they were victims of war.
Fraudia
It's frustrating I know, when we see the so called Muslim leaders with their heads buried in the sand and not helping their their own society in the first instance, let alone brethren from other nations.
I'm no military strategist or Scholar, but do know right from wrong.
Maybe it's time to reflect upon the 'signs of the times'.
Only Allah Knows Best.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Lord Drizzt
All of it was in the name of Cristianity and NOT humanity. The bible was actually used to back up the justification!
[/QUOTE]
Sholay, I know this statement is for Drizzt, but I will attempt to respond to it if you don't mind.
I guess you were right that the crusades were fought in the name of Christianity, but not for Christianity. The church of today denounces the acts of attrocities commited during that era. The crusades were more a war of the church to usurp power over the holy land, rather than any God appointed battle. Christianity does not require the forceful occupation of any land, anywhere on this earth, since all of the universe belongs to God. All battles fought then or now in the name of Christianity, are merely human. Never endorsed by Christ.
Consider these words of Jesus:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but no My kingdom is not from here."
So you see as followers of Christ we are to seek the kingdom of Heaven first, knowing that earth is merely a temporal abode.
b
Dear Fraudia, I agree that no religion is sane in history and has taken shelter of sword for dirty political or economic reasons; whether it is Christianity, Hindus or even Buddhism.
But can you name at least one religion that always roams around interpretation or misinterpretation other than Islam?
If you pay attention with an open mind you will find that all religions today have become very passive, whereas it is only Islam left the most active religion and this activeness is the reason for violence.
(In India in some latest period some interested parties are giving interpretation to Hinduism, talking the same barbaric language and the result you must have seen in Gujrat. They also want an active Hindu religion; they want to create Madrisas for Hindus.)
My Islam is better than your Islam…..when Sholay talks of Saddam and Kuwait, it seem something like that!!!!!!
Islam is a religion of peace, reason, logic, and rationality. It is a religion that fosters love and tolerance. It is the new wave. I am very glad that I am muslim.
:)
Originally posted by anand: *
**But can you name at least one religion that always roams around interpretation or misinterpretation other than Islam?
If you pay attention with an open mind you will find that all religions today have become very passive, whereas it is only Islam left the most active religion and this activeness is the reason for violence. *
every religion does to some extent, all you have to do is look. There are other factors included in here too. The countries where this argument goes on mostly have disputes on ethnicity and language and tribes as well. Religion or its interpretation is just one of the things they cant agree on.
I am very open-minded about this but as i noted its not just a question of religion but the areas it is concentrated in.
However, islam is under a microscope so these things become more apparent, pay the same amount of attention to any religion and you will see similar issues. we would not have that many diff sects in christianity had it not been differing interpretations.
*(In India in some latest period some interested parties are giving interpretation to Hinduism, talking the same barbaric language and the result you must have seen in Gujrat. They also want an active Hindu religion; they want to create Madrisas for Hindus.) *
so you are not talking about interpretation as in how shias and sunnis, or orthodox and cathl=olics differ in their interpretation...but you are looking at the misinterpretation of religion for extremist actrivities?
that is not simple interpretation, that is deliberate misdirection by these leaders to their followers. Half of the time what they say is incorrect or incomplete. sadly the people dont know anything themselves and are thus manipulated.
*My Islam is better than your Islam…..when Sholay talks of Saddam and Kuwait, it seem something like that!!!!!! *
That is again different than the two diff type of interpretation examples given above. the forst one was a major division at a religion level which causes sects to form. second was deliberate misquoting or misuse of religion by bigots for their own power. This last one is from a personal political views and more to do with personal ideas than a real interpretation.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Queer
Lord Drizzt
All of it was in the name of Cristianity and NOT humanity. The bible was actually used to back up the justification!
[/QUOTE]
Why does that matter? I can kill someone in the name of sholay, but you wouldn't even want that someone killed. Then I can use the justification because sholay is wearing blue or whatever. Should you be blamed? Why should you be blamed? In the same way, why should christianity be blamed for the crusades and the halocaust?
Anyway, thanks for your support, blitz
Dear Fraudia, I do not agree that all religions are bad; hence Islam can also be bad. Let us not find excuses!
I repeat that Islam is the only active religion left today, and rests of the religions have become passive.
Islam is very active and the credit goes to the Madrisa system, especially when children minds are programmed.
‘Your God is the only God, your religion is the only religion and rests are kafirs, paganas, so and so’. A mind programmed this way will not flourish in good manners and result you know.
You can compare the same to RSS system in India, they also pick up children at an age of 7 or 8 and program them in the same religious superiority manners and for these children prepared in RSS madrisa their Hinduism is the only religion and rest is secondary.
RSS wants to compete with Islam.
You want to see a peaceful Islam…..close down Mdrisas and everything will be OK.
anand
you have to describe what you mean by active religion versus passive religion, its your own terminology and you have to describe what you mean, because to me active means flourishing like many religions are and the opposite of that would be religions which have become comparatively dormant like zoroastrians.
not all madrissas are bad, some are some are not. I would encourage you to stop by a few and see for yoursef. The madrissa system was abused by the powers that be during the afghan-soviet war to create a form of fighter which we see now. Similar concept as what RSS is doing with its own recruits, but at a larger scale. Lately with the regulation of madrissa's and their curriculum by the govt means that they would not longer be operate independently and teraching whatever they want for whatever purposes. That is a good step.
as far as any religion teaching that the people who are not following that religion are not on the right path, almost every religion has it. kaffir, heathen, goyim, icchantika, infidel, nastika..diff religfions, same concept.
Fraudia
You've honestly got time debating the Madrassa system with Anand.
All this guy ever eats, sleeps and drinks is Madrassa!
He's literally possessed by the word.
I'm not labelling him, but check his posts over the years?
Dear Fraudia, if you tell a Jew, a Hindu (Off course a non RSS Hindu) or a Christian something bad about their religion, they will just ignore you or even will easily tell you a lot of jokes about their own Gods. These people have come out of religious madness.
But Islam differs. And the reason is Madrisa system. You have very easily understood the status of RSS, but have rejected the fact of poison being pilled into the mind of a child, a Muslim child who is sitting for some years in a Madrisa, roaming his head to and fro and memorizing quran.
I can assure you that majority of Muslim terrorists have spent some years of childhood at a madrisa and their mind is totally mechanized. (Close down these madrisas, do not compel children to learn quran and Islam will become a normal religion.)
May be, now you understand the difference between an active and a passive religion!
Saddam has already given a call of Jihad to all Muslims and a memorandum of help to Allah.
I do not know if Allah will respond to his memorandum but many Muslims will definitely react to his Jihad for not to miss an opportunity to cross over to some heaven. (Pls do not tell me that Jihad means struggle, so and so)
Saddam has killed Iraqi citizens (Muslims) at a very slow rate of 1 lakh per year during his regime.
What kind of peace we can talk of?
Originally posted by anand: *
**Dear Fraudia, if you tell a Jew, a Hindu (Off course a non RSS Hindu) or a Christian something bad about their religion, they will just ignore you or even will easily tell you a lot of jokes about their own Gods. These people have come out of religious madness. *
Is that true? have you spoken to any of the followers of pat robertson? you listed your own RSS folks?
oh and do try to pick on some saints or holy figures to some christians and see how they react.
But Islam differs. And the reason is Madrisa system. You have very easily understood the status of RSS, but have rejected the fact of poison being pilled into the mind of a child, a Muslim child who is sitting for some years in a Madrisa, roaming his head to and fro and memorizing quran.
Have you ever visited one madrissa?
I have not rejected that intolerance is hammered into the heads of kids in "some" madrissas. memorizing quran does not do jack in terms of poisning someone's mind.
I know plenty of haafiz who went to madrissa as kids and then went on to become professionals.
*I can assure you that majority of Muslim terrorists have spent some years of childhood at a madrisa and their mind is totally mechanized. *
how many of the 9/11 attackers ever set foot in a madrissa. or the suicide bombers in palestine? Its easy to make those claims. its your assumption.
if you are talking about the typical religious zealot there are tons of other socio economic factors that are common among them than just the presence of a madrissa which is not always the case.
What i did say was that some of these madrissas are indeed in the hands of the wrong people and are churning out bigots that I would want nothing to do with.
Madrissa system overall being under supervision from government will try to ensure that there is a set curriculum which is followed by teachers who have attained some level of education.
** (Close down these madrisas, do not compel children to learn quran and Islam will become a normal religion.) **
yes close down the specific madrissas that teach intolerance. Teach kids quraan in a proper manner without political agendas and strings attached to it, and the issues caused by and related to these fanatics will cease.
but its not all madrissas and its not the learning of quran.
*May be, now you understand the difference between an active and a passive religion! *
no, this defintion of active and passive is your own defintion and misses the mark. do you mean politically active?
and by your definition, rss proves that hinduism is an active religion and the whole struggle in northern ireland shows that christianity is as well.
*Saddam has already given a call of Jihad to all Muslims and a memorandum of help to Allah.
I do not know if Allah will respond to his memorandum but many Muslims will definitely react to his Jihad for not to miss an opportunity to cross over to some heaven. (Pls do not tell me that Jihad means struggle, so and so) *
right, those who are foolish enough to fall for it will, saddam has been a socialist at best and thus anti religion in general using religion as a banner when he needs it, just liek he deags in palestinian issue when he needs it.
as far as jihad being struggle, it is, it also has a martial aspect, no one has ever denied it.
*Saddam has killed Iraqi citizens (Muslims) at a very slow rate of 1 lakh per year during his regime.
What kind of peace we can talk of? *
so saddam is an evil person, opposed by all kinds of people in his country. he did not rise to power under some islamization banner.
to equate saddam with religious extremism is the same as equating castro with religious extremism :)
Dear Fraudia, very smartly you are ignoring something.
I am talking about the psycho impact on the mind of a child who is moving his head to and fro while memorizing something (fanatic) for two or three years?
Do you know that in any religious sect only tree or four months are enough to reprogram a mind, provided the person has totally given up? And very similar tactics, rituals are performed like that of moving head here and there for hours, dance etc while pilling the mind with the idea of non-questioning superiority of the teacher. (This reprogramming of mind they can do with elders, what about the children of 6 or 7 of age?)
Why a Muslim mind cannot compromise that his Prophet is not the only superiority or may be quran is not everything? I am sure you understand the answer!
RSS is doing the same with Hindu children. In fact Hinduism of RSS is not very far from Islam.
So the RSS are reverting to Islam then?
*Originally posted by anand: *
*Dear Fraudia, very smartly you are ignoring something.
I am talking about the psycho impact on the mind of a child who is moving his head to and fro while memorizing something (fanatic) for two or three years? *
No anand, i am not ignoring anything. As I noted its not the learning of the quraan, its who teaches it and what their political motivations are which the blend in with the religious education that creates fanatic, not the texts. I have visited madrissas, I know people who are haafiz and are simple, peaceful people and others who are professionals.
so , I am nto smartly ignoring anything. I am painting a true picture, which you probably dont want to see.
Do you know that in any religious sect only tree or four months are enough to reprogram a mind, provided the person has totally given up? And very similar tactics, rituals are performed like that of moving head here and there for hours, dance etc while pilling the mind with the idea of non-questioning superiority of the teacher. (This reprogramming of mind they can do with elders, what about the children of 6 or 7 of age?)
first of all i think you mean religious "cults" and not sects. secondly do you know anyone personally who had gone to a madrissa?
so even by your own words, the "programming" is involved, therefore who is teaching makes a big impact, and once teh madrissas are under regulatiions just liek other schools, people being able to slip in their own political agendas will be limited.
*Why a Muslim mind cannot compromise that his Prophet is not the only superiority or may be quran is not everything? I am sure you understand the answer! *
hey religions are that way, try talking to a jew or a christian and they will tell you that their way is the only way too.
*RSS is doing the same with Hindu children. In fact Hinduism of RSS is not very far from Islam. *
the RSS types are closer to some of the extremist elements but not islam overall. I see little difference between extremists fo any religion, they are very far from the essence of the religion itself.
a normal civilized hindu is just as pleasant to talk with as a normal civilized hindu, and a RSS/VHP bigot is not much different than a sipah e sahaba bigot.
Fraudia, again you have missed what I had to repeat for you. I am talking of a child who is moving his head to and fro while learning quran. And the psycho impact on his mind of this moving to and fro. The similar tactics you will find in a sect or ‘cult’ as you name it, the result is total imprisonment of mind. You are confusing it to a Madrisa where some religion is being analyzed, or taught.
I am talking of a child and his years spent at Madrisa.
This child’ mind is poured with religious bigotryand and at a later stage he cannot compromise.
RSS has started the same that your religion has been doing for centuries.
It seems that you have never met Jews, Hindus or Christians…they know how to ignore or even crack jokes if their religion is questioned.
You know well that Castro will never give a call of Christianity, Bush will also never do that…But whenever a Muslim leader is beaten he immediately gives a call of Islam and Jihad…does not matter how big duffer, tyranny or may be a killer he is, he gets a response.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Sholay mah man..
no one came to the rescue of bosnian muslims being butchered by the serbs. If it were nto for uS many ppl I know here would nto be alive today.
and yes, innocent people got hurt there too who had nothing to do with serb atrocities but they were victims of war.
[/QUOTE]
Dear Fraudia, I know what you mean here. There was not support/help from "Muslim leadership". But there were Muslims pouring in, the same Muslims who were once regarded as "heroes" then "terrorists". The same people in Chechnya. US intereferred, as I remember, when Muslims were turning the table over.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by anand: *
....
It seems that you have never met Jews, Hindus or Christians…they know how to ignore or even crack jokes if their religion is questioned.
.....
[/QUOTE]
Do you know anything about "loose connection"?