Iraq Militants Threaten to Behead 3 Turk Hostages

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by At-Tawheed: *
*As-Salaamu 'Alaykum.

I'm back.

Brother, Ravage - Inshaa'Allaah your fine and in the best of Eemaan. No answers so far akhee (brother)?
[/QUOTE]

Walekum Assalam.

Brother AT, I left off debating in sectarian themes quite some time ago, simply because it inevitably causes more bad blood than anything remotely useful towards reminding us that we are foremost Muslims then anything else. I have not read your post for this very reason, because I might be goaded into googling up answers for you.

Please dont keep waiting. Although if you must find someone to talk to, you might find tons of people willing to spend nights and days bickering over these topics at shiachat.com.

I repeat again, I only wished to let others know that you, like me, belong to a different line of thought than most readers online.

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I understood you were implying before that I idol worship Ibn Taymiyyah.

But, just thought I would clarify.

Okay.

Right.

So.

I idol worship Ibn Taymiyyah with
[QUOTE]
blind admiration or devotion
[/QUOTE]

And exactly how is that?

Prove it.

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Okay, Ravage.

Mashaa'Allaah.

But, have the humility to take back what you said about Ibn Taymiyyah, as you had no proof to back it up. And we know in the Religion, anyone who acuses another Muslim of something but he is not like that, the the accuser is what he accused of.

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum.

44

I came across this.

http://www.shiachat.com/Documents/IbnTaimiyyah.doc

Just thought it’s relevant to post here.

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Since the original topic of this discussion is long lost, so I may as well take this opportunity to ask another tangential question, if you don't mind.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by At-Tawheed: *
And we know in the Religion, anyone who acuses another *Muslim of something but he is not like that, the the accuser is what he accused of.
[/QUOTE]
At-Tawheed,

Can you post some back up for this statement? Its interesting and will come in quite useful in future dialogues. Not too long ago, a gentleman accused some people of being qadianis/ahmadis, when he had no proof and infact was quite incorrect. So I am wondering does making the false claim, makes that person a qadiani/ahmadi himself. Not only that, there are other people here too, who keep making different kinds of false accusations against others, with no proof or truth to support them.

Jazak Allah.

46

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by At-Tawheed: *
Okay, Ravage.

Mashaa'Allaah.

But, have the humility to take back what you said about Ibn Taymiyyah, as you had no proof to back it up. And we know in the Religion, anyone who acuses another Muslim of something but he is not like that, the the accuser is what he accused of.

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum.
[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, Ibn Taymiya is everything I said he was. That does not imply that I do not have reason/proof for believing so, merely mean I am not presenting it. Again, I googled his name, and you and I both are free to form our conclusions about him.

Regards,

47

Brother Faisal:

[QUOTE]
Can you post some back up for this statement? Its interesting and will come in quite useful in future dialogues. Not too long ago, a gentleman accused some people of being qadianis/ahmadis, when he had no proof and infact was quite incorrect. So I am wondering does making the false claim, makes that person a qadiani/ahmadi himself.
[/QUOTE]

Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard the Prophet Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Was-Sallam say: "No man accuses another of being immoral or of being a Kaafir but it will come back on him if his companion is not like that." Al-Bukhaari (6054).

'Abd-Allaah ibn 'Umar narrated that the Messenger of Allaah Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Was-Sallam said: "Any man who says to his brother, 'O Kaafir,' if this description fits him, then he is a Kaafir, otherwise it will come back on him (the one who said it)."
Saheeh Muslim (60).

And some of the Scholars have said that the person who calls another a Kaffir but he is not so - Then the accuser is the Kaffir. Thats why some of the Scholars made Takfeer on the Khawarij based upon the above Hadeeth because the Khawarij would declare Muslims to be Unbelievers. So we really have to be careful who we start calling a Kaffir, Fassiq, liar, etc.

I hope that helps, Inshaa-Allaah.

[QUOTE]
Not only that, there are other people here too, who keep making different kinds of false accusations against others, with no proof or truth to support them.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah as I have wtinessed also.

In Islaam whenever anyone makes an accusation - He has to bring forward the Proof.

For example, Ravage, tried to tarnish the name of Ibn Taymiyyah, and accused him off all sorts of things. Basically he lied and slandered upon him. He has no proof to back up what he says.

Even though Allaah says:

Hatuu Burhannakum in kuntum Sadiqeen.

"Produce your proof if you are Truthful." (Al-Baqarah 2:111)

Now, Ravage says:

[QUOTE]
As far as I know, Ibn Taymiya is everything I said he was.
[/QUOTE]

But he has not provided a single proof for what he has said - Thus everything he accused ibn Taymiyyah of - He himself is what he accused Ibn Taymiyyah of.

[QUOTE]
That does not imply that I do not have reason/proof for believing so, merely mean I am not presenting it.
[/QUOTE]

By not presenting your so-called proof - You are what you accused Ibn Taymiyyah of. Produce your proof! Don't you Fear Allaah?! How you can lie upon a man and then not produce your proof. Enlighten us, forbid the Munkar ravage - If ibn Taymiyyah is deviant and we are taking from him, surely it is a duty upon you to warn us with clear proofs.

The reason why you have not presented the proof, is because it is all weak.

I mean, come on.

How stupid.

The Scholars of his time, couldn't find anything against him! So, what do we except, you and your likes of this day and age where Knowledge has been lost will be able to prove him a deviant?!

Dude, the Scholars, his enemies of his time, after he passed away, they acknowledged him and praised him! So, please fear Allaah.

[QUOTE]
Again, I googled his name, and you and I both are free to form our conclusions about him
[/QUOTE]

Google.

Are you joking?

Anyway, whatever. I bear witness Ibn Taymiyah is free from the accusations you accused him of.

May Allaah Guide you.

Don't slander people from hearsay. Don't lie upon them and accuse them from what you heard from others. Verify for yourself before you throw around major accusations.

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum.

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:salam: At-Tawheed

Regarding your above reply, its obvious that calling someone a Kafir without justification means either the accuser is one or the accused.

But surely it doesnt apply to other things as asked by Faisal, say for example someone accuses someone of fornication or accuses someone of drinking alcohol, it doesnt mean that the accuser (if wrong) becomes a fornicatior or drinker but is instead labelled a liar (and givien the appropriate punishment).

Or could you provide evidence, if this is infact the case that the accuser is labelled with the sin they accuse someone else off.

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Wa-'Alaikum Salaam M.

The answer is here:

Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard the Prophet Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Was-Sallam say: "No man accuses another of being immoral or of being a Kaafir but it will come back on him if his companion is not like that." Al-Bukhaari (6054).

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:salam: At-Tawheed

I was hoping for a bit more explanation for this, but found the following anyway.

Accusing a Muslim of drinking wine

Focusing on this part mainly

Whoever slanders his brother or accuses him of an evil deed has to repent to Allaah, ask his brother’s forgiveness, and avoid everything that causes harm to a fellow Muslim. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, let him say something good or else remain silent.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 11/256, and by Muslim, no. 47). Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘No man accuses another of an immoral deed or kufr, but it will come back on him, if the person he accuses is not as he says he is.’” (Reported by al-Bukhari, 10/388). Accusing a Muslim of drinking wine is the same as accusing him of an immoral deed (fisq), and whoever accuses his brother of something he is not guilty of, Allaah will make him fall into the thing he of which he accused his brother.

According to this accusing someone of a sin (wrongfully), means the accuser will end up falling into the sin he accused someone else off. Unless of of course he repents and asks for forgiveness.

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Wa-'Alaikum As-Salaam Wa-Rahmatullaahi Wa-Barakatuhu M.

Sorry.

Al-Imaam, Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr said in his explanation of the Hadeeth of Abu Dharr in his Fath ul-Baree:

"This shows that if a person says to another, "You are a Faasiq (immoral person)" or "You are a Kaafir", and that is not the case, then he is the one who deserves to be described in that manner."

This is the principle as far as I know amongst the People of Knowledge, and they have derived this from the two Ahadeeth mentioned in the above posts.

Meaning, if you call 'Abdullah a Kaffir with no proof etc - Then either one of you is a Kaffir.

So either your a Kaffir.

Or 'Abdullah is a Kaffir.

And on the other hand say you accuse Bilal of being a Liar.

And Allaah says "Produce your Proof if you are Truhful."

^This Command is really important.

If no proof is bought to back up an accusation, what else can we say?

Either Bilal is the liar.

Or your the Liar.

You accuse someone of being a Qaidyani, but don't prove it.

And Allaah says "Produce your Proof if you are Truhful."

One of you is a Qadiyani.

Either the accuser or the accused.

Note: This does not mean, if a brother/sister calls you a Kaffir, that you go back around and call them a Kaffir. No. But, these Ahadeeth are serious exhortations to the Believers, to watch your tongue. And especially when you are labelling another Muslim to be an Unbeliever.

And Allah Knows Best.

52

[QUOTE]
According to this accusing someone of a sin (wrongfully), means the accuser will end up falling into the sin he accused someone else off. Unless of of course he repents and asks for forgiveness.
[/QUOTE]

Jazakh Allahu Khayr for bringing that explanation.

Really helpful.

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This thread proves in volumes why the muslim world is falling faster and faster behind the rest of the folks.

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why, what does it prove, matsui?

AT, I have no idea why you consistently dont get my message. Im simply not interested in debating. You believe he was great, I dont. You have your information before you, I have mine. Kindly go and argue with the other four hundred people on your leader's case, I really wont be badgered into a debate :).

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i think tht wht the americans did was wrong cuz if they wanted nuclear power frm Iraq they cud have gotten loads of it frm Korea....n if they're trying to "help" rebuild Iraq thts wrong too cuz i dun think any country has the rite to butt into other country's business...they r just there for their own advantages......as for the Iraqi terrorists, they've realized tht the only way they can get their way is by beheading different types of ppl who r takin americas side.....they r ruining Islams image, bcuz Islam doesnt say tht we have to behead innocents n stuff.................so i think maybe in general fighting for their country is good.....but beheading innocents is just wrong...

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[QUOTE]
AT, I have no idea why you consistently dont get my message. Im simply not interested in debating.
[/QUOTE]

I did not debate. I was merely discussing. And I was asking you bring forth proof.

And, it was you who started all this malarky about Shaykhul-Islaam.

But, no problem.

It's Finished.

We can see the Truth - Alhamdulillaah.

[QUOTE]
You believe he was great, I dont. You have your information before you, I have mine.
[/QUOTE]

Difference is:

My information is Authentic.

Yours is non-existent.

Or it is Weak, Lies and Fabricated.

[QUOTE]
Kindly go and argue with the other four hundred people on your leader's case, I really wont be badgered into a debate
[/QUOTE]

Four hundred people is it?

Well, if they had problems or had evidence - Surely they would have posted it in this thread.

Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have Mercy upon him, is not my Leader.

Rather, my Leader is Muhammad ibn 'Abdillaah - Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Was-Sallam.

I'm sure any fair minded seeker of Truth can see with whom the evidences lie and with whom the misconceptions and slanders lie.

Peace be upon those who seek the Guidance.